Does outsize of 2BF get too hot to use galvanized wire to wrap forge?

Fitzhugh

Fitzhugh

Joined
Feb 5, 2013
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194
I made a two brick forge but didn't think to look for anything to wrap it in. I used some 18 gauge bare copper wire as a temporary wrap - glad I did! I fired it up on low, let it run for at least ten minutes as I got the oil ready and once more thought through all the motions. A few minutes after cranking the torch I heard a crack - both bricks had split. I gather this is normal.

I looked around and I have some water heater straps I could use, or I could get some chicken wire or metal cloth, but what I see is all galvanized. I do not want to metal fume fever.

In searching here I see some others using what looks like galvanized wire mesh but that doesn't tell me whether it is really a good idea. Any other suggestions or input?

Thanks!
 
It wouldn't matter if it did get hot. The wife's tale about hot galvanized metal giving off poisonous fumes is not true. Best to use plain binding wire , but galvanized won't kill anyone.
 
I'm not an expert in any way, but I really don't think it is just false. I don't, however, have any idea of the thresholds involved. Please search "metal fume fever" - you'll see many references from reputable sources.

It can be fatal, but that apparently takes extreme cases (the one post I saw in a very brief search on anvilfire was about an elderly smith who already suffered from emphysema, tried to remove a bunch of galvanized coating from larger pipe sections by burning them off in his forge, filled his shop with smoke, coated the inside of the forge with a layer of crap, felt sick, felt better, felt sicker, died.

I think it is much much more common to cause flu-like symptoms that clear up after a couple days, often not recognized as coming from metal fumes: whodathunk? Hot Metal = Flu?

It may not come into play at all in this kind of situation but I'd rather spend a few minutes asking here than take an unknown (to me) risk of laying sick in bed for 2-3 days.
 
Metal fume fever is not fatal. It is often confused with zinc poisoning, which is a problem with animals, but a rare situation in humans. Zinc poisoning is not caused by breathing zinc oxide fumes, but by absorbing or ingesting metallic zinc. The treatment is fresh air and rehydration.

This has been discussed many times before. Here is my text from a former thread that covers the commonly stated misinformation about Jim, "Paw-paw" Wilson's death.

We have this pop up about once a week - so I'll post my comments again:

Metal Fume Fever is the condition you get from breathing zinc oxide fumes by burning/welding on/heating galvanized metal. It is a flu like feeling. Red itchy eyes, nausea, runny nose, etc. It is not fatal. Drinking milk, and getting fresh air and a good nights sleep are the treatment.

Zinc Poisoning is an entirely different condition, and is of concern with animals ( especially birds) but rare in humans. It is caused by absorption of zinc through food and skin contact. In its most severe case, it causes liver and kidney failure.

Zinc Oxide is a stable compound of zinc, and is not absorbable through the skin......or all the life guards would be dead. Like any fine dust ( and smoke), breathing zinc oxide should be avoided.

Heavy Metals is a poorly and improperly used term ( and not actually a medical term), that refers to any metal that is....well...heavy. Problem is that all the "heavy Metals" are not heavy....and all are not toxic ( the medical term is Toxic Metals). Some heavy metals are required for health. Zinc is one of these, Iron is another. Others ,like lead, mercury, cadmium, and many of the radioactive metals, are toxic, and can lead to death. The ones that are of a worry are the ones stored in the blood and tissues that slowly disable the ability of your blood and nerves to work properly. Zinc is not one of these.

Jim "Paw Paw" Wilson died of severe pneumonia caused by working in a closed shop for hours with heavy smoke. The presence of the zinc fumes surely did him no good, but it is misleading/wrong to say he died of zinc poisoning. His death was sad, but it probably was avoidable. Great overexposure to smoke and particulate inhalation, and severe pneumonia is what killed him....not metal fume fever.
Stacy

We all need to avoid exposure to dust and smoke, but working safely and intelligently is the best way to do that....not fear mongering.

Wear filtration - a good P100 cartridge filter mask or hood will avoid 99% of all metal/wood working problems.
Have good fresh air flow in and out of the shop.
Vent exhaust gasses. Even better run forges outside when possible.
Remove dust at the source -vacuum systems or other dust collection is almost a must for safe shop work. At the very least, vacuum up the work area after ( and during) dirty work.
If feeling woozy, take a break.
If feeling sick ,knock off for the night. Tell someone you don't feel well and were working in the shop.
If ill, see a doctor! Tell him what you do for a hobby, and what metals and woods you have been using. (BTW, doctor regularly confuse metal fume fever/heavy metal poisoning, too. They hear the same stories we do.)
When working with galvanized metal and welding or burning on it, keep upwind.
 
Posts in forums can be tricky, easy to misread intent and tone. Let me say at the outset here nothing I'm writing is meant snarkily.

I reread your first post. I had focused on the old wives tale portion, not the "better to use plain binding wire, but galvanized won't kill anyone." I took your response to mean it didn't exist at all. Perhaps you similarly misread my posts. I thought I was clear in saying I had no idea if it would ever come into play in these circumstances, just that it does exist. I thought I had tread lightly and took pains to avoid claiming it was an actual risk to worry about here - that was what I was trying to ask. That one case - seemingly common knowledge and oft mentioned - I thought I was clear in saying was about as extreme a situation as one could create, involving massive concentrations and preexisting lung disease. In my quick searching I saw references to fatalities. Now, having gone back, I see they each had underlying problems: emphysema, preexisting cadmium poisoning when welding zinc and cadmium something or other. So, thankfully, I appear to have been wrong in saying metal fume fever itself could be fatal.

Being new here, I don't recognize specific posters' names and knowledge levels and didn't notice you are a moderator and more likely than not do know what you're talking about, so I couln't tell whether you had any more actual knowledge than I on the specific topic (meaning barely enough to know to ask). You could have been passing on either knowledge gained from great experience and study or just dismissing the question out of hand because you heard someone else say "Ba, I never worry. My grampa was a smith and never had safety glasses and He still had both his eyes at 90" or whatever.

By the way, I did search "galvanized" and opened and skimmed the links on the first two pages of results before posting. I didn't think to search "metal fume fever" - didn't know the name until I then went and searched on the broader internet, then returned and asked. I don't post that much because I find almost all my questions answered already. The rest probably were, I just don't think of the right search terms.

Anyhow, I in no way ever intended to fear monger or even say one should worry at all. I do think it proper to respond when someone says something false - as I mistakenly took your response to mean. This wasn't a case of someone jumping on a forum and saying "O! M! G! everyone stop!, I just read this new scary thing. Put down the knife and step away from the forge!" ... I think of the canola oil email I still get once a year or so from relatives. I was just seeking information.

My grandfather, who I never met, made a big bowie knife when he was a forest ranger. I always thought that was the coolest thing. Sadly a sibling snagged it first. There is something so magical about not only shaping but changing the very characteristics of metal using basic, simple tools. Magical even though I'm learning the theory behind it. I'm sure I don't have to explain that feeling to anyone here, but I do want to thank you for making it possible by taking time to answer my questions.
 
Hank,
I did not mean to sound like I was jumping on you....and am sorry that it came out that way. As you say, things meant to help can easily be misconstrued in print on a forum.

The subject comes up often, with people who have never welded, or worked with galvanized metal saying, "It will kill you quick", "It killed Paw-Paw", "Zinc fumes are deadly toxic", and similar posts. I was trying to stop that before it started.

I have experience with this subject, as when I worked in research for Virginia Chemicals, one of the facilities we had at the plant was a Virdust unit. It took metallic sodium, melted it, sprayed it out as fine particles ( in a nitrogen atmosphere), and the resulting sodium powder was coated in pure zinc dust. The Virdust powder was shipped in big drums, and used to zinc coat sheet steel. we had to be very familiar with the properties of zinc and zinc oxide, as well as all the issues with handling metallic sodium.
 
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Thanks - I didn't feel jumped on, just wasn't sure if you misunderstood my intentions. I was wholly unaware of the problems with the topic coming up. If I'd searched "metal fume fever" after being reminded of the term elsewhere instead of just having searched "galvanized" I'd probably have seen both the issues around frequent and wrong warnings and the answer to my question, but I didn't think to.

As I said, I appreciate the help I get here. Just MAKING things is one of the great joys in life and this opens so many possibilities. A couple years ago I started woodworking with hand tools and learning the old time techniques. This feels like that - all of a sudden I can do stuff or learn to do stuff I didn't realize could be within reach.

Thanks!
 
I used galvanized 1/4" mesh to wrap my 2BF in the WIP that I made. It never gets more than hot, never close to vaporizing the zinc.
 
Great, thanks. I think I said it above (too lazy to look) but I've only fired it twice and not for all that long so I didn't have a sense. I also wasn't sure if it took lots of heat or if it were a lower but still high temp off gassing process.

Sure seems non-galvanized metal cloth is hard to find around here.
It's still held together by the temporary (because it is poorly done and ugly) wrapping. I just finished making a more secure cradle for the torch and moved everything back outside to the shade when my fiance came home and declared a no-hammer-zone for the next couple hours. Said something about some nap thing or something. Even without hammering the torch is a bit loud to run just outside the bedroom window. Oh well.
 
There is only one solution to the problem.....get a new fiancée. She is just getting started, and the next time it will be your clothes or hair that isn't the way she wants......:D

( just kidding )
 
Can't I just get a second one that matches the first?
OK - obligatory but true retraction: I would never find another as willing to put up with my crap. I am one lucky man.
And no, she's not looking over my shoulder.
I hope.
 
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