Does the darkness and/or cause of a patina change its effectiveness?

The patina on a frequently used knife will change with use. You wear off old patina as new patina builds. I'm not sure how well patina protects against rust in the long run. Frequent use of the knife may actually reduce rust better by simply wearing away the rust that tries to build up. That might be why a blade with heavy patina resists.

Recently I read an interview with the owner of a company that builds knives for use under extreme conditions. (I forget both the company and the owner's name. Sorry) His knives are all made with carbon steel. He said he observed natives in the Amazon used only carbon steel machetes and knives and they never had to worry about rust on their blades despite contact with corrosive fluids and substances and the hot, humid weather. The reason being the knives might form rust but, since they were in constant use, the rust was worn off immediately. So, on a knife in frequent to constant use, being able to maintain a sharp edge was more important than rust prevention.
 
The old times used to say a blade was " cured " when it had turned black from usage. I've found this to be pretty much right-on-the-money true. I have never had rust on one of those now black stee high carbonl blades. This ' patina '[ I dislike that word ] cannot be pushed but must be earned the old fashioned righteous way.
 
The patina on a frequently used knife will change with use. You wear off old patina as new patina builds. I'm not sure how well patina protects against rust in the long run. Frequent use of the knife may actually reduce rust better by simply wearing away the rust that tries to build up. That might be why a blade with heavy patina resists.

Recently I read an interview with the owner of a company that builds knives for use under extreme conditions. (I forget both the company and the owner's name. Sorry) His knives are all made with carbon steel. He said he observed natives in the Amazon used only carbon steel machetes and knives and they never had to worry about rust on their blades despite contact with corrosive fluids and substances and the hot, humid weather. The reason being the knives might form rust but, since they were in constant use, the rust was worn off immediately. So, on a knife in frequent to constant use, being able to maintain a sharp edge was more important than rust prevention.

I have never been to the Amazon, but I am very familiar with a flat black patina that develops on carbon steel machetes with constant use in the tropics, Living in the Pacific Islands, all of the bush knives (machetes) in the village developed a nice patina due to a special patented formulation of seawater, pig blood and breadfruit sap.:D
 
Whenever I get patina on mine I get out the flitz and polish it off.

I just can't get used to knives that are not SS.
 
The patina actually acts a bit like bluing a firearm. If you have ever cold blued a firearm, you will know what I mean. It does offer a bit of protection from rust, but still must have a light (read l-i-g-h-t) coat of oil or some other rust inhibitor. It also will start to look much better over time. I have actually used 44/40 cold blue on a few knives and they turned out beautifully, the patina dark and even. Normally, I just let them age naturally over time.
 
Some really 'dark' patina may not be tightly-bound to the steel. I've noticed much of the deep black patina left immediately after inducing it with vinegar will be easily scrubbed off with baking soda, when cleaning the blade afterward. The grey patina that's left in place is the harder stuff, and is what's doing the real work in resisting additional oxidation (rusting) down the road.

I've also read (in highly technical research docs that I didn't fully comprehend ;)) that the different acids or other caustics used in oxidizing metals will create different colors of oxide, based at least in part on the specific pH of the solution used, and the specific chemical reactions taking place. I'd assume the protective qualities of the oxide will also vary widely by the same reasoning.


David

Apples will often turn Case CV (50100B) to swirls of blue. Ketchup or mustard will bring out yellows, reds, greys, and etc. I think I have that right. My memory says so, but I might have them reversed.
 
Whenever I get patina on mine I get out the flitz and polish it off.

I just can't get used to knives that are not SS.

AARROOOOGA ARRROOOOOGA WOOOO-OORT WOOO-OOORT
ATTENTION ALL STAFF WE HAVE A RUNNER.

Sorry colubrid but when I read such non patina heresy I'm on it like a thong on a fly (that's the footwear and insect translation);)
Now.
Where was I?
oh yeah -I'm no chemistry professor and more knowledgeable people will hopefully correct my mistakes.
The air that surrounds us is around 21% Oxygen -
Oxygen is what causes Oxidization.
Therefore a blade should patina simply by existing
if not maintained by cleaning and oiling on a regular basis.
Time and air will do it.and humidity.
2012-11-22111817.jpg

mmmm yes Ye Olde English Mustard (bloke mustard that makes you see the inside of your own nose not the girly kind you put on them hotdogs) really brought out some nice colour on this one.I think it was actually eating my 2011 BF knife.:eek:
My tip for forcing patina is use the knife don't store it after you patina it .This could have ended badly...
.Yes I oiled it.
 
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Lee48, sounds like you read an interview with Jeff Randall of ESEE knives. Almost all of their knives are made from 1095 high carbon steel. He's knows of what he speaks as he's traveled the world (mostly third world) teaching survival classes, and certainly is familiar with what the indigenous people use as far as sharp thingy's.
 
Before and after pictures of a Camillus 72 Frankenknife. Before cutting the leaves off a couple of dozen stalks of Rhubarb and about two minutes after cutting the leaves off a couple dozen stalks of Rhubarb.

I don't recall seeing rust form on any carbon steel blade I've carried. Chalk it up to patina, luck, inattention to detail, old age memory loss or what ever you will, I just don't recall it happening.

Patina_before.JPG

Patina_After.JPG
 
The patina actually acts a bit like bluing a firearm. If you have ever cold blued a firearm, you will know what I mean. It does offer a bit of protection from rust, but still must have a light (read l-i-g-h-t) coat of oil or some other rust inhibitor. It also will start to look much better over time. I have actually used 44/40 cold blue on a few knives and they turned out beautifully, the patina dark and even. Normally, I just let them age naturally over time.

I've used 44/40 as well, works nicely and it can be softened a bit with 0000 steel wool.
 
Well here I am, almost two years later but here's my two cents anyway - I watched a youtube video where a guy did a test on 1095 steel blanks, all made from the same piece of metal. He divided the treated blanks and one untreated blank in sections and left them outside to see how each protective coating did on each blank. He had five sections as follows: 1) waxed, one with Renaissance wax and the other with something else (Mother's Brazilian something?). 2) Were mineral oil, 3 in 1 oil, rem oil and WD40. 3) Were two different kinds of bluing - one rem wax blued and rem oil blued. 4) Were the acid treated - rem wax acid and rem oil acid. 5) was the plain untreated blank. Out of all of them the 3 in 1 oil did best. A couple of other got close but 3 in 1 was by far the most inexpensive and did best, and of course the untreated one did worst with the mineral oil just behind it or almost as bad. They were all left out for days and were checked daily... I think. However, like most other oils, 3 in 1 oil is not safe for consumption but works great to protect the knives themselves.

If anyone wants to watch the video simply go to youtube and type "rust test on blanks" and see for yourselves.

Felix

PS - Oh, and I for one believe patinas on carbon steel blades are not only beautiful but more importantly it helps protect blades.
 
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Well here I am, almost two years later but here's my two cents anyway - I watched a youtube video where a guy did a test on 1095 steel blanks, all made from the same piece of metal. He divided the treated blanks and one untreated blank in sections and left them outside to see how each protective coating did on each blank. He had five sections as follows: 1) waxed, one with Renaissance wax and the other with something else (Mother's Brazilian something?). 2) Were mineral oil, 3 in 1 oil, rem oil and WD40. 3) Were two different kinds of bluing - one rem wax blued and rem oil blued. 4) Were the acid treated - rem wax acid and rem oil acid. 5) was the plain untreated blank. Out of all of them the 3 in 1 oil did best. A couple of other got close but 3 in 1 was by far the most inexpensive and did best, and of course the untreated one did worst with the mineral oil just behind it or almost as bad. They were all left out for days and were checked daily... I think. However, like most other oils, 3 in 1 oil is not safe for consumption but works great to protect the knives themselves.

If anyone wants to watch the video simply go to youtube and type "rust test on blanks" and see for yourselves.

Felix

PS - Oh, and I for one believe patinas on carbon steel blades are not only beautiful but more importantly it helps protect blades.

Interesting. 3 in 1 oil is mostly mineral oil with paraffin.
 
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