Dogfather Vs. B11 Vs. KZ II

I can definitely see how the NMFBM would be the better chopper with the convex grind and its length. I want to see the KZ 2 LE in action :D:D:D:D
 
I have the DFLE, the Basic 11, the NMFBM and a TTKZ, KZII and a Nuclear KZ. I had two CGDF's but sold them as I prefered the flat ground DFLE for balance and weight.

I have used them all a great deal .... but some I had to "modify" to get them to work at their best.

For chopping and splitting wood SR77 v Infi is the closest part of the two comparable metals. Infi retains an edge a bit better than SR77 but you need to be cutting with the knife to really show this. If you baton a very sharp DFLE and NMFBM they both stay sharp for "ages" .... mainly because the knife is being pushed through the wood vertical and there is no "rolling" pressure on the blade.

Chopping does give a rolling pressure and which one holds out the best can be down to how the edge is profiled. Both steels will "roll" if the edge you have on them is sharpened to a razor sharpness and similarly done for both .... if you get the profile right though they can stay sharp from chopping for quite a long time .... so there is'nt a lot to choose IMO save for characteristic's of the knives if comparing the CGDF to the Basic 11.

The Basic 11 is longer and less deep, faster in hand and if you can get one with an ASM edge it will avoid "rolling" far better than a convex edge for comparable "razor" sharpness. This just seems to be down to the edge "design" and if you are right handed. Chopping with an ASM edge in all my comparable knife to knife reviews has definately shown a longer lasting ability for this type of design. If it is ASM it will have been done by Jerry .... and the sharpness from "the box" is all you could ever want .... pure pleasure to use right from "the off" .... the ASM Basic 11 is the only one from all of the above which will be like that. The others all need a lot of work in comparison .... so for me the Basic 11 is a "winner" in the "come as you are" comparison.

The CGDF and the DFLE will have great edges .... mine did and I bought mine when Dan was running his own show .... but to get the best out of the edge it needs the shoulder lifting to a back bevel or you can do it by convexing the edge .... then there is less resistance and it bites a lot deeper and improves noticeably when chooping. The sabre grind on the CGDF though will not feel as fast and agile as the flat grind on a B11.

The NMFBM benefits a lot from being stripped and fully convexed .... a fair bit of work but once done it is a better chopper than the Basic 11 and the CGDF .... but it is a "lot" heavier than the Basic 11 and for the weight difference it does'nt out chop the Basic 11by "that much" .... so the Basic 11 falls into the "pound for pound" winner with the NMFBM being the best in sheer performance.

Then we have the Zilla's .... lots of work needed here on the TTKZ for thinning and re-profiling the convex grind blade .... once done properly to a zero edge it will chop better than the NMFBM .... whether it is a LE version or CG .... but you need to know a little about using a khukri and the re-profile has to be "right".

The KZII comes with a better convex grind but still needs some tweaking .... the handle though is not right for me .... I had to alter mine a fair old bit to get it right and even then I want to change the grips to the style used on the TTKZ .... but once done my KZII and TTKZ seem to be equal .... no surprise though given I have altered them in a similar fashion.

Then we have the Nuclear KZ .... $1500 worth of "perfection" in terms of it being noticeably lighter because of the steel removed along the spine .... faster in hand too .... and comes with the great TTKZ grip. Mine was flat ground and bead blasted ... they usually are fully convex and satin .... the falt grind enables the bead blasting to work .... because it comes with a normal edge .... in my case that needed sharpening .... but once done it does'nt lead the pack in out chopping the other KZ's but keeps pace with them and is "noticeably lighter".

The reason why the KZ's when tweaked right out chop a NMFBM is that you can sink all of these blades up to the "spine" in wood when chopping with good technique .... but the sweet spot "depth" of the blade on the KZ is more than the depth on the NMFBM so it bites deeper into the wood. To do a comparable chop with a NMFBM you would need to sink it "past" the spine .... and to be "fair" most of us are doing well to sink a knife "too the spine" .... I certainly have'nt done many chops where I go beyond the spine with my NMFBM and I do love that knife! It is still my most used Busse.

So as an over all "winner" .... it depends on what you value the most when deciding how to judge the knives .... weight v performance and value for money wise .... the B11 aces it IMO.

Sheer performance .... a re-worked Zilla ....

Top end of manageable belt carry weight and top performance .... the NMFBM .... because the Zilla's are a bit too heavy for all day belt carry IMO .... the Nuclear one being an exception but it is a very expensive option and very few have been made.

Personally I would go for a Basic 11 from what you have described as your main usage ....
 
IMHO, Peter is The Man when it comes to this question. I had wondered why he hadn't answered this thread, and I should have known the reason. His experience is exhaustive with these blades, and in taking time to concentrate his knowledge in the above post he has given the most comprehensive answer imaginable, at least to me. I always learn from his posts, and this is no exception--especially enjoyed the comparison of steels and geometries in specific applications. Great stuff!

BTW, if you would like more detail and elucidation of some of his comments above, do a search for threads started by him on this forum--you will find volumes.

Thanks to Peter and to the op for this thread,
Will
 
peter thanks for the post :thumbup: That was very informative. I think the B11 is what I am looking for as an on the trail chopper. It seems to be pound for pound the best chopper out there. I just missed out on two opportunites to purchase one on the exchange but Ill see if I can't grab one eventually or maybe trade the Zilla for one. I really do love my zilla but its really slow and it also pitches alot when you swing with it. you have to be really careful that it doesnt fly out of your hand, especially since you can't put a guard on it.

The only thing I'm worries about is that I use my Zilla for everything chopping related. I havent used my dogfather for any serious chopping since I got my KZ. I hope I havent gotten spoiled with its power and not be satisfied when the B11 doesnt have the same ability to chop and split.
 
KalEl, why not try selling the CGDF and pitch a little money into getting a B11 ? Those two are closer so to speak and then keep the Zilla ... having both a CGDF and a B11 is less of a "range" of chopping ability compared to hanging onto the KZII.

I know what you mean about the KZII being able to "turn" in your grip if you hold it "centrally" using the middle palm swell ... one of the reasons I want to swap out the grips for a TTKZ style which has a better "locked in" feel is because the front of the grip has a longer and deeper swell and so has the rear ... therefore stops your hand want to "slide" when impacting on the wood.

You can run a lanyard through the first ( from the front ) eye hole on the grip and this helps lock in your grip ... but bear in mind if you catch the blade on overhead branches when swinging and it dislodges in your grip a lanyard can cause it to still be a "lose danger" .... whether or not to use a lanyard is a difficult call .... because equally speaking dropping the knife at the wrong point in a swing would still be dangerous .... the simple rule with the KZ's (or any chopper really) is to watch your feet and leg position and your swinging clearance carefully .... personally I prefer no lanyard but each to their own ....

For what it is worth technique wise .... if I am going to chop and section a log ... such as on a fallen tree where I have to take the task as it is presented .... I use other chopped (thick) branches and place them inside my line of swing "stance wise" to act as "backstops" if I consider there is any chance that swinging "low" may on a glanced off strike run the risk of catching my legs .... so far so good and it has never happened .... but better to be safe than sorry ....
 
PeterPHWS said:
KalEl, why not try selling the CGDF and pitch a little money into getting a B11 ? Those two are closer so to speak and then keep the Zilla ... having both a CGDF and a B11 is less of a "range" of chopping ability compared to hanging onto the KZII.

I know what you mean about the KZII being able to "turn" in your grip if you hold it "centrally" using the middle palm swell ... one of the reasons I want to swap out the grips for a TTKZ style which has a better "locked in" feel is because the front of the grip has a longer and deeper swell and so has the rear ... therefore stops your hand want to "slide" when impacting on the wood.

You can run a lanyard through the first ( from the front ) eye hole on the grip and this helps lock in your grip ... but bear in mind if you catch the blade on overhead branches when swinging and it dislodges in your grip a lanyard can cause it to still be a "lose danger" .... whether or not to use a lanyard is a difficult call .... because equally speaking dropping the knife at the wrong point in a swing would still be dangerous .... the simple rule with the KZ's (or any chopper really) is to watch your feet and leg position and your swinging clearance carefully .... personally I prefer no lanyard but each to their own ....

For what it is worth technique wise .... if I am going to chop and section a log ... such as on a fallen tree where I have to take the task as it is presented .... I use other chopped (thick) branches and place them inside my line of swing "stance wise" to act as "backstops" if I consider there is any chance that swinging "low" may on a glanced off strike run the risk of catching my legs .... so far so good and it has never happened .... but better to be safe than sorry ....
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice! I am really good about safety when it comes to chopping. Ive seen way too many people hit their shins etc.. when using improper technique. Generally when chopping something laying on the ground I chop right handed and stand with my left foot a little bit forward and put my whole body into it but make sure that I never use a "circular swing" where after the point of contact you keep moving towards yourself. I always try to swing straight down through the wood and not back towards myself and so far it has worked. And I agree laynards can be very dangerous. Ive dropped my KZ twice when chopping and Im glad I didnt have a lanyard on because it likely would have bounced back and hit me.

That is a good point about getting rid of the DF and keeping the Zilla. I have a SOD as well so I would have a very wide range between the 3...and a Junglas... And a waki :D

I think If I see a B11 at a good price Im going to grab it :D Thanks for all your advise guys! I really appreciate it. Keep your eye on the exchange if you want a user DF :thumbup:
 
I had the KZ, and KZII, I ended up letting both of them go due to weight and the handle design. Unlike a normal nepalize Khukri, the handle is way too long; almost a two hand design. The Basic 11 reminds me a bit of the old battle mistress I used to have in balance. I love the B11 and will probably get another one; to be honest, I like the feel of the handle better than I do the Bushwacker, "which I also like alot" Cool looking is good, but functionality wins out every time.
 
I switched my carrying setup for my KZ 2 from a drop leg setup to an upside down baldric setup and it has made it much easier to carry.

And you're right I don't know what's up with the handle meing so huge. I can almost fit two hands on it. I think a smaller tighter handle would have been a better idea but Jerry's got some bear paws so it probably fits him.
 
I decided to do some head to head comparisons between the KZ 2, DF, and Junglas. Sorry I didnt bring my camera so no pics but I learned a few things.

First I sharpened all of them till they would cleanly shave arm hair on the paper wheels. Kukris suck to sharpen. I went out and found a downed log and chopped away. I did 50, then 20, with all of them at even power then I did 10 each swinging as hard as I could.

The KZ 2 was noticeably better than the DF but the DF performed very very well. Id say the KZ 2 was about 25% better for being almost twice the weight. Even though they were sharpened the KZ's edge is still really fat and I could notice that when it bit the actual chop marks were much wider than the DF which has an excellent convex edge for chopping. The Junglas is didnt chop that well but at .187 thick and very well balanced that was expected. However in brush clearing the Junglas spanked them both with the DF taking second place.

With the power chops, swinging as hard as I could I really noticed how much more powerful the KZ is than the DF. With its extra weight when you swing there is just so much more power behind each stroke.

As for the handles- The KZ's is way to big both in length and thickness for my small hands. I have to be really careful that I dont lose it when I swing hard. The DF's handle is great but honestly I think the basic handle would benefit from being a little bit thicker. The junglas has a fantastic handle that is very comfortable and easy to control.

Overall I currently have Junglas strapped to my pack for long hikes because its so light weight and versatile and has a fantastic sheath. I use my KZ 2 mostly on short hikes and for yard work and the new baldric setup I have makes it much easier to carry.

Once I get a pancake sheath for my DF Ill see if I use it more than the junglas.

Also whoever said that SR 77 doesnt have good edge retention was lying. I took about 30- 40 chops out of hard wood with it, chopped up 10 chicken breasts for a huge bowl of chicken salad and cut some other things and it would still shave arm hair cleanly. Maybe its the edge geometry but I am extremely impressed with SR 77. Even more so than INFI. But I think as I continue to use the Zilla and thin out the edge till it reaches a high convex I will really be able to experience the awesomeness of INFI.

If there's anything Ive learned from this thread and my personal experience, edge geometry is everything when it comes to performance.
 
Here is my set up. I carry the B11 with a baldric. The KZII sheath sits too low right now. I need to make more holes to shorten the Baldric before actually doing any carrying of the KZII.

IMG_3613.jpg



I like the handle room on the KZII. The thing I still need to fix is the little tail on the back of the handle. It needs some attention with sandpaper. I don't hold there while chopping, but still need to get it fixed.

I went with the machined handles, which are a bit blocky, but I wanted to try them out before deciding, because I can sand it down if I want, but can't add anything later.

The handle on the B11 is so much better for cushioning shock. My hand fits and I wear a 2xl gloves (tight normally). But, I have not tried a DF handle.


The performance of my KZII was greatly improved by an edge refinement. I convexed the shoulder and took it a bit higher up on the grind.

The B11 also has had edge work. I convexed 1/2 for a ghetto asymmetrical edge.


I would love to try chopping with the KZII LE for a comparison.

I am glad I have both just for the options they give.
 
I have a DFLE with a convex edge, and a B11 with a convex edge. I find for my area both chop about the same and the B11 is a better brush slasher.
 
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