Doing something stupid/Planning ABS TEST knives

S

shane justice

Joined
May 12, 2003
Messages
1,606
Ok Guys,

I have never been known for my brilliance in thought or action.

Having said that, I have deicded to begin (again) to plan 5 knives for the ABS JS judging. As slow as I work, it will be at least a full year (probably more like two) before they will be completed.

Many years ago at the San Jose Custom Knife Show I made a HUGE mistake. I actually asked to look at a Bill Moran knife that was under glass. There was a gentleman there, and a sign that said, "ASK to handle knives behind glass."

Back then I didn't really understand the value of a mint knife...especially a MORAN knife.

The guy looked at me as though I had just landed from Mars. He did not say a word...he sort of "harumphed" and turned his back on me.

What I wanted to know was, how did it actually FEEL.

Pictures are great, but they don't tell the WHOLE story.

I think we have all seen knives in magazines, and then later get a chance to handle them, and we end up putting them back down. And then there are the ones you simply CANNOT put down.

Anyhow, the purpose of this thread is to find pictures (since that is all that is available) of some knife designs I am inteseted in.

Bill Moran ~ ST-24 and the knife which was in the Loveless/Barney book, and any images of his "Rio Grande Camp Knife" I tried to google images of this knife, and the Warner/Moran production knife.

Bill Scagel ~ Big Camp Knives. ( Does anybody have contact info for Dr. Lucie?)

Also if anybody has actually held the knives I mentioned I would LOVE to get their impressions.

I am not looking to make replicas of these knives. I am going to try to "interpret" a style as best as my limited skills will allow me.

All help is appreciated.

Shane

Right now all I have is line drawings. For years when I had no shop or tools I doodled knives. I have sketches that are 20 yewars old. ONce in a while I shuffle through them and laugh.

For any newbie out there, I cannot underestimate the value of drwaing knives, with as many views as possible. For me it helps visualize each step, and how I want each line to look/feel.

Shutting up now.
 
Dear Moderator,

Should I have posted this somewhere else?

I was hoping to get some talk about designs of the makers I mentioned.

Shane
 
WTF...

I decide to get out the dingle berry... Er, uh blackberry on my lunch break and peruse blade forums and to my wonderous astonishment the long lost vioce of an old friend is front and center!

Glad to see your back in it me amigo!

I wish I could help with your request but I have no Morans in the closet. I can tell you about a Runa 32B Crockett Bowie if you want.

I hope all is well! I'll help you any way I can. Just let me know.

Rick
 
shane....i would post this in the customs forum asking for help....i have seen alo of morans posted over there and i'm sure a few collectors could post some pics for you.....ryan
 
Shane, I obviously have no cusoms other than my own... that being said, you're in Wyoming, there are how many MS there? There's also that big summer time hammer in up there. That would be a good chance to handle some MS knives.

I know Wyoming is a fairly large state, my godfather lives in Crowheart, right down the road from Audra Draper's father :)
 
WOW!

Jeez...RIck BAUM as I live and BREATHE!

HOLLY BUCKETS! Talk about re-visiting the scene of the crime!

OK...back to bidness...I will deal with "howdy doos" later.

Ryan I will post on that forum...god advice..I still don't know this place as well as I need to...

As far as how many MS's live in Wyoming...

I think since Mr. Rodebaugh moved to Cheyenne...there are 4.

Mr. Rexroat, Mr. Fowler, Mrs. Draper.

OK...I been to Riverton. That is all I have to say about that.

I met Mr. rexroat at the Big SKy Hammer-In. When I have a finished knife to show him.. I will make a shop visit. I won't do it until he can see where I am with my progress. Otherwise it is sort of a waste of his time. You know?

When I started this threasd and asked for pics and infor it was so I could learn the only way I can right now..(osmosis) or by guess work ...

BUt mostly, immersion is about the only way I can really get my head into design work.

Lemme see if I can put it another way. My hand will only ever make a hammer work at certain angles. So too for any other tool I use. The way my hips, shoulders, knees, brain are all specifically me. When I try to draw an arc, say the belly of a knife. Mine always look exactly the same. Because that is how my hand "can" work.

So, that is how it is for each of us. And that is why our workbecomes ours when we quit trying to be somebody else, and just be ourselves.

However, I can filter what I see ,feel, think and attempt to produce my own take on what those past makers great, and possibly by understanding what they were doing find my own "knife".

It is the classic, "FINGER AND THE MOON" parable.

All I was trying to do was see their ,"moon" and not their, "finger"

Right?

Rick, tell me you understood what I just said.

Shane
 
Shane,
I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying. I am trying to find a "face" for my knives.

Dr. Lucie usually brings Scagels to Batson's in April. I spent 45 minutes with my face pressed against his display case, I'd still be there if my wife didn't point out that there was a crowd of people trying to look around my gourd.

There was a "Scagel Madness" and a "Moran Madness" (I think Moran, I know Scagel because I asked for one) thread with some pictures in the "Custom and Handmade" forum recently. If you want to see pictures I'd recommend going there, if they don't have the actual knife there's a good chance that they'll produce 4987987 pictures (apparently the email each other pictures they find on the net.)

I wish you the best in your journey, I'm about to enter that phase in the next year or so (if I think I'm ready.)
 
Shane im in your shoes right now i went online looked at a few moran knives and to be honest ive seen better even here a few people have that much tallent.As far as 1 bowie to be worth 12 g is to say the least insane.I collect art from some of the best western artists in North america and i dont see a value of 12 g for a knife. I am not saying the guy made crap by any means but come on he makes nice knives i de say they would be worth 500 to 1000 bucks realiticly speaking.In my opinion a knife is a tool that is crafted by a maker of several skills and everyone has a different level of those skills such as a oil painter . I know ill get lots of slack over this post but come on its a knife that ide gut a deer with. I would love to know the type of people that have that kind of money to spend on a knife .Maybee i just dont understand that there is a certain type of people that collect high dollar knives the price of a car.I guess we will see when i go to sell a knife in a month. kellyw
 
Kelly,

You won't get much gripe from me. Any man wants to speak his heart...is ok.

As far as the money end of it. I got asked one time, how much do I charge for one of my knives.

I asked the guy, "How much is your rifle worth?"

He says, "$800 with a scope."

So I says, "I can make you a knife for $200."

He asked what he got for his money. SO I told him..and he said he thought that was purty reasonable.

Now I want to meet the guy with the $15000 rifle.

Anyhow, for me...

And I have the luxury to say this on account of I have a job that pays the bills...It AIN'T about the money.

I just want to understand what a knife of any type would feel like...so I can get a better idea as I go along...

See thanks to one of my teachers...I KNOW what 15 different antique Japanese swords...feel like, smell like, move like. I was there when he unwrapped the old silk ties and watched the little pieces of paper fall out. I was extermely fortunate to learn what a sword from the 3rd Crusade handles like, moves, and yes...although you will shirk at this as BS...I know what it "SINGS" like. Anybody who has been where I been will nod in the affirmative.

I KNOW what a 500 year old Chinese JIAN "circles" like...on account of one teacher who BLESSED me with all of this.

NOw I hope to learn a bit more...to repay that teacher...and all of them who have blessed me with a kind word and those who have also blessed me with a kick in the butt...as I place another cobble on the road...and take another step.

Jeez..I got preachy


I told somebody this jsut today. I just try to surround myself with good,...so when I go to making a knife, I take it all with me...and whatever comes out...might be good too...

Shane
 
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OK Shane, I think I know exactly what you were refering to with the "finger and the moon" parable. I once made a knife for my brother. A one of a kind. It was a design that embodied my brother and his intersts at that time in his life. When I finished it I sent it off to someone to have a custom sheath made. The problem, as i turns out, was that the sheath maker was married to an old timer knifemaker who had apparently run out of ideas of his own. About a year later that old timer had "his" knives featured in K G Russell knife catalog. As I turned the pages admiring his knives, there it was... my moon! I saluted him with a figurative finger.

They say imitation is the highest form of flattery. I don't disagree... Just give credit where it's due. It would have been a nice boost to my attempt at making a name for myself. If you know what I mean.

I know you well enough that whatever you come up with in design will only be inspired by both Bills. I've seen knives that have come from you heart. I have never held one but I can say that just looking at them in two dimensions they definitely had a piece of your sirit infused in them.

Pesonally, I feel that when we leave our spirit in our creations that is when they begin to have a face that is recognizably our own and no one elses. You are well on that path my friend. Keep it up and find inspiration wherever it jumps out at you.

Now, knowing a bit about the ABS test knife arena from reading magazines and discussing the judging happenings in Atlanta with friends that have attempted it... I have to say, tongue in cheak, if you were to copy an ST-24, a scagel camp knife, a Fisk Sendero, throw in a Batson Bowie replica and top it off with a Fisk Bowie knockoff, not only would you get your stamp but you'd probably win two or three awards and a center fold feature in Blade Magazine! ;)

Yep, my sarcasm still lives... Sorry!

I knew you'd be back... Any way I can help, don't hesitate to ask. I mean it. I still have that piece of 52100 you sent to me when I was in Tucson as well as several load control shafts if you need steel.

Rick
 
OK Shane, I think I know exactly what you were refering to with the "finger and the moon" parable. I once made a knife for my brother. A one of a kind. It was a design that embodied my brother and his intersts at that time in his life. When I finished it I sent it off to someone to have a custom sheath made. The problem, as i turns out, was that the sheath maker was married to an old timer knifemaker who had apparently run out of ideas of his own. About a year later that old timer had "his" knives featured in K G Russell knife catalog. As I turned the pages admiring his knives, there it was... my moon! I saluted him with a figurative finger.

They say imitation is the highest form of flattery. I don't disagree... Just give credit where it's due. It would have been a nice boost to my attempt at making a name for myself. If you know what I mean.

I know you well enough that whatever you come up with in design will only be inspired by both Bills. I've seen knives that have come from you heart. I have never held one but I can say that just looking at them in two dimensions they definitely had a piece of your sirit infused in them.

Pesonally, I feel that when we leave our spirit in our creations that is when they begin to have a face that is recognizably our own and no one elses. You are well on that path my friend. Keep it up and find inspiration wherever it jumps out at you.

Now, knowing a bit about the ABS test knife arena from reading magazines and discussing the judging happenings in Atlanta with friends that have attempted it... I have to say, tongue in cheak, if you were to copy an ST-24, a scagel camp knife, a Fisk Sendero, throw in a Batson Bowie replica and top it off with a Fisk Bowie knockoff, not only would you get your stamp but you'd probably win two or three awards and a center fold feature in Blade Magazine! ;)

Yep, my sarcasm still lives... Sorry!

I knew you'd be back... Any way I can help, don't hesitate to ask. I mean it. I still have that piece of 52100 you sent to me when I was in Tucson as well as several load control shafts if you need steel.

Rick
 
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