Don't hide your bang under a bushel!

Alan_B

Alan_B

Joined
Apr 16, 1999
Messages
212
In a recent thread (CRKT has fired a shot) I appreciated Sal's discussion of features of Spyderco products that are not immediately visible. My motivation for this post is to try and highlight some of these "less visible" features. I'm also not interested in the question of one firm's products being better or worse than another. I'm not coming at this without a bias because as far as I'm concerned no production knife company is the equal of Spyderco when it comes to innovation, product quality, and customer service.

The first item I am interested in exploring is steel. Aside from differences in elemental composition, steels with the same name (e.g. AUS-8)can vary in quality and cost depending upon the manufacturer. I presume from Sal's post that all the AUS steels that Spyderco uses are made by Aichi and I further infer that other manufacturers use the same designation but perhaps are of lesser quality than AUS steels made by Aichi. Perhaps similar hierarhies of steel quality for materials with the same designation may exist for other steels as well (VG10, ATS-34, etc.). As an end user (ELU) how is one to determine what a knife manufacturer uses? With Spyderco this answer is easy, just ask! With some manufacturers I would guess that this is difficult information to come by.

In addition to the steel composition, the treatment of that steel during manufacturing (i.e. heat treat, cryogenic, etc.) also appears to be an area that can influence greatly the cost and performance of a given steel. Manufacturers that are looking to cut costs probably can save something here. Any comments on these tradeoffs from anyone?

Linerlocks are also an area that Sal suggested are implemented very differently between manufacturers. High end current Spydercos incorporate features that improve performance including nested liners, offset arc tang ramps, and eccentric pivot. I agree that these are all innovative features and that they improve reliability, adjustability, and rigidity. Older Spyderco linerlocks do not include these features and they have performed well enough for me and few custom linerlocks include more that one of these features.

As for lockbacks, I'm sure that the Spyderco R & D insures that their lockbacks are amongst the most secure produced. Additionally, the Boye detent that they incorporate is an innovation that is not widely used (because it adds cost) but the newer Spydercos use it.

Sorry for this longwinded post but I hope that it will provoke some discussion to highlight the additional features and increased performance of Spyderco's products. Related to this question is "how much quality or perfomance do you need?" and "at what cost?" Cheers! -Alan :cool:
 
I too am very interested in the subjects you mention. I'm particularly interested in steels, with a focus on the benefits of forging it.

I think the difficulty in finding the answers you suggest questions about, is that it is highly unlikely that any company is going to be out front with the information that they use an inferior quality batch of steel; nor that their heat treating methods leave something to be desired.

One of my main personal problems in sorting some of this out, is that I don't use any of my knives much. I don't work any longer, due to health problems. Those same health problems prevent my doing much of anything outdoors. I have a special arborist, or whatever you call it, knife made specifically for making clean cuts on plants like roses, etc. I've used it to prune off spent blossoms -- from 1-30 at a time -- maybe once or twice, and cut fresh flowers -- usually 5 or 6 at a time -- maybe 6-7 times over the past 2 1/2 summers. It hasn't dulled the blade, which is made of Sandvik127C or whatever. But, I don't know how one of my "tactical" folders would have fared doing the same limited amount of cutting. I've nothing to compare that performance to. I can say that it has not been stained at all. I've always washed it off and dried it after use. But that is too little to even really judge the anti-corrosion abilities of the steel.

I guess the only thing for me to do, is invest in some manila hemp rope, and start to do a lot of cutting. Then I can compare the # of cuts and the ease of resharpening. Even though many experts perceive rope cutting as one of the best edge testing mediums, I'll still only know how many pieces of rope can be cut. Very frustrating.

I suppose that I and others could count the # of times we "cycle" a folder, from closed to open and back closed again. I tend to do this on more an unconscious level than conscious. I think it would be boring beyond belief to count them. And, I've never seen any published benchmarks of how many times a liner locking folder can be cycled with various levels of wear being attained. I can give one imprecise example. It is my guess that I cycled my CRKT M16-14 at least 100 times per month for the 18 months I carried it. It could easily be 5, 7, even 10 times that many. So far as I can see, the liner hasn't moved over more than a couple thousandths of an inch.

I tend to think that these numbers might be significant. I've some other knives that haven't been cycled nearly so much, and I've seen significantly more travel of the locking liner. But, how do I know for sure? Should one expect 20K cycles of a knife before wearing out the pivot or lock? 30K? Only 10K?

There are many other variables to consider. Say, for example, one wishes to evaluate the usefulness of steel. Let's be specific, and talk about ease of sharpening. I recently learned of a comparison cutting/resharpening test done to compare forged 52100 and CPM440V. The forged blade outcut the 440V. It took well under a minute to resharpen, while the 440V blade required 10 minutes to restore the original edge.

Let us suppose that the forged steel hadn't outcut the CPM steel. Say it only cut half as many slices of rope before requiring resharpening. Or, only a quarter. Which blade would you rather have with you in a genuine, long-term survival situation? So the 440V blade's edge lasted 2 or 4 times longer than the forged 52100. The big question is, can one hope/expect to be able to sharpen the 440V blade in the wilderness well? At all? I have no doubts that I'd prefer the knife that I knew I could sharpen in the wilderness over the CPM steel bladed knife. I think that the benefits of the wear resistance could potentially spell disaster in a survival situation.

I recently read something written by somebody -- I think it was Sal -- that AUS6 is a better steel than a large majority of manufactured knives have for blade steel. Here it is mostly scoffed at, except for some appreciation of its anti corrosion abilities. I think that there are a lot of forms of snobbery that have come to be "mainline" thinking on the forums. I also like the good edge AUS6 takes. I so very seldom sharpen a knife, that I don't think the need to sharpen an AUS6 blade would bother me very much. I keep reading about various sharpeners, techniques for sharpening. Frankly, many forumites sound as if they thorougly enjoy sharpening a knife. So how come so many of the same people wouldn't be caught dead with a knife that has an AUS6 blade?
 
Hmm...Bugs has given me some things to think about.

I agree that getting info about one company's AUS-6 and heat treat vs. anothers would not be readily accessible. I would however suggest that because of their R&D and commitment to performance, Spyderco's AUS-6 may be better than a competitors. If so then I would love to see them "blow their own horn" more about this.

As for forged versus stock removal steel, I'm not too educated on this subject. My understanding is that forging rearranges the carbides in the matrix and alters the hardness (an oversimplication, I know). I always thought that edge retention and ease of sharpening were the inverse of each other thus I am confused about how something could retain an edge longer and be easier to sharpen (all other things being equal!).

Yours in confusion, Alan
 
Is the eccentric pivot on linerlocks a Spyderco exclusive?

(I think it is but correct me if I am wrong)

How about the offset arc on the tang?

(I think that other vendors employ this as well but I'm not sure which ones...and was it a Spyderco innovation?)

How about nested liners? I'm not sure that I have seen these on any other production knives.
 
I agree that Spyderco is a highly innovative knife company, with first-rate quality. My favourite brand overall, the brand I follow most avidly, although others are also quite good. Sal's "Bang for the Buck" remarks had some very interesting information about knife production. I'd like to hear more from him on the subject. Maybe he could occasionally enlighten us with further posts once in a while. Sort of a continuing series. Let's have a vote. All in favour, blink your eyes. Vote passed! Okay Sal, start writing.
As to the offset-arc ramp on The Starmate, etc., I see that it's different than the regular liner-lock ramp, and that it works very well. I would like a brief technical explanation on the offset-arc, preferably from Sal.
As to nested liners, I believe the Browning Barracuda line uses them. Not of the same quality as Spyderco's nested liner, but they might be good. Browning knives, in general, are a quality product.
 
I think the offset arc ramp is very similar to Benchmade's "modified locking liner" concept. It allows for a much longer period of time before there will be blade play.
 
Some interesting questions. I don't mind sharing info as long as we don't get into a "pissin' contest" over knive companies.

The eccentric pivot is something that Spyderco developed, patented and is willing to share with any company that makes linerlocks. It helps in both manufacturing and long term adjustments. The main reason that other companies have not adopted the pivot is because it is expensive and more difficult to install.

The "offset" in the arc ramp provides a "hook" to catch the liner if it slips. Bob Terzuola goes into detail on how to make it in his book on Tactical knives. That too was developed at Spyderco. Both features were developed to make linerlocks safer and more reliable.

Nested liners we began with the Michael Walker model in the early '90's. I believe we were the first to do that in production.

Bugs. We have a CATRA edge tester which is quite consistent and we'd be happy to test any blade that you would like to compare. Print out the cutting graph for you and let you draw your own conclusions. When I forge, I use 52100. It is a very predictable steel. However, again a diffentially heat treated blade has qualities not possible in a production steel at equivalent costs. Our own testing has not shown the same results you say you have seen achieved.

I did notice that in the other thread (CRKT), many were quick to argue Spyderco vs. Columbia River. Different companies with different goals and methods. IMO, they cannot be effectively compared unless you were comparing for a specific quality.

We can compare measurable qualities on accurate measuring equipment, but that's really all that can be compared.


sal
 
Originally posted by Sal Glesser
When I forge, I use 52100.
Click to expand...

:eek:

OK. I'm intrigued. There are handmade Sal Glesser forged customs floating around out there? Now there's a maker I've got to add to my collection!
 
Thank you for explaining the source of some of the innovations in Spyderco knives. I'm very interested in the CATRA edge tester you have described. I wonder if someday it will be accepted and deployed so that we could review test data on manufacturer's web sites? How much is the sample to sample variability when tested on this edge tester? Cheers! -Alan
 
Hi Brian. My piece are not good enough to sell...yet. gifts to family members.

Hi Alan. The CATRA tester cuts a custom made card stock with a particular amount of abrasive built into the stock. When we test two identical blades, the results ar almost identical.

sal
 
Originally posted by Sal Glesser
Hi Brian. My piece are not good enough to sell...yet. gifts to family members.
Click to expand...

Actually, Sal, I like buying the early pieces of young, struggling makers like yourself. Y'know, just to give them some encouragement. Maybe pay for a nice dinner or two!

And aren't all of us Spyder buffs like family, anyways? ;)
 
Yeh! What Brian said:D !

However on a more serious note its intelligent posts and topics like this that make me proud to be welcome here. Keep up the good work all!:cool:

My point of view is Spyderco lead the world in affordable quality knives with utility designs and leading edge... steels!

Some knives may look more... well tactical etc, esp from that maker that I don't like much, but thats why we have the colaberation series knives right?

Oh and Sal, you came up with the Military? Right? Name a better knife for the money? If only it had a compression lock, but then the liner lock on this knife is very good anyway!:cool:
 
Hi General. Thanx for the kind words. We lead in this, they lead in that and the other guy over there leads in another. We are an industry. We are all needed, we all contribute.

Thanx Brian, I'll keep that in mind.

sal
 
Thanks, Sal -- I gotta do a better job of checking back on threads I've already posted on. I keep forgetting to do that, and miss lots of significant stuff.

I myself did not witness any testing. I was just repeating what was told me by a maker with impeccable integrity. Certainly, the 52100 blade was differentially heat treated, tho I doubt that would have much impact on cutting ability. The knife was almost surely cryo-quenched also. As I meant to say, but may not have, I do not know much about the source of the 440V blade(s) against which the forged knife was tested. I will pass on to the maker your offer.

I too would be extremely interested in learning anything and everything about knife manufacture -- both generic and company specific. I really want to know that stuff!

For one reason, it is so that I can better make judgements about quality. In all my reading here, I can't remember ever reading anything, until this thread, about offset ramps for linerlocks. I will do a search and read everything I can find on that subject.

I agree with you that specific qualities should be compared between knives. That is all I asked in starting the other thread is if anyone could compare the new CRKT knife with a Spyderco lockback of the same blade length. I stated that there would likely be a quality difference. But, I wanted to know what someone else thought on the subject. I believe some knives provide value far beyond their price, and that some others provide less than their price.
 
Hi Bugs.

"I myself did not witness any testing. I was just repeating what was told me by a maker with impeccable integrity. Certainly, the 52100 blade was differentially heat treated, tho I doubt that would have much impact on cutting ability".

Cutting ability and the ability to bend ARE the reasons for differential heat treat.


"The knife was almost surely cryo-quenched also".

Surprizing, since most bladesmiths do not cryo their differentially heat treated blades.


"As I meant to say, but may not have, I do not know much about the source of the 440V blade(s) against which the forged knife was tested. I will pass on to the maker your offer".

Certainly that would make a difference.

"I agree with you that specific qualities should be compared between knives. That is all I asked in starting the other thread is if anyone could compare the new CRKT knife with a Spyderco lockback of the same blade length. I stated that there would likely be a quality difference".

What difference, other than quality, did you hope to find?


"I believe some knives provide value far beyond their price, and that some others provide less than their price".

I believe that is possible, but more the exception than the rule. Quality is time, time is money. Those three are connected anywhere in the world.

sal
 
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