Down the Slippery Slope

Don Rearic

Don Rearic

Joined
Oct 8, 1998
Messages
8,917
I would like to place this in this Forum. Derek can remove it if it seems inappropriate.

I think given the latest things said about EKI in another thread about EKI's alleged "irresponsible" behavior of designing, producing and marketing the Wave Opener and not consulting a very Anti-Weapon, Anti-Self Defense and Anti-Gun State like Massachusetts which has a goofy law in a sea of goofy laws...that this is a very timely article.

There are so many pictures of Emersons with Firearms around here, it defies the imagination. Basically, Emerson Owners are Gun Owners.

This article has to do with the Slippery Slope leading to all weapons being confiscated and self-defense being criminalized and it will become readily apparent this is the design of the bedwetters and wannabe tyrants in this society and politics.

Quite frankly, I wanted to place this article here and not anywhere else for one simple reason. That reason being, I think you people will appreciate it much more than most people at BladeForums. For another thing, alot of us in this Forum rely on our Emerson as tools and last ditch weapons.

Often times in the past, I have posted things like this and people have ridiculed the essays. The parallel can be seen among Gun Owners, Duck Hunters don't care about handguns and AR-15s, as long as they keep their duck hunting, non-tactical shotguns. And that has been proven time and time again. I say "Duck Hunters" not to be derogatory as some people who Duck Hunt obviously agree with us. But for the most part, "The Duck Hunters" have not supported Ownership of Defensive Weapons.

It is important to remember that things that we bitch about like Gun Control Laws and the Switchblade, Gravity Knife, BaliSong, and other nonsense laws, they are not designed to protect us. It is simple incrementalism. They take things piece by piece.

Like I said in another Thread, if you are denied the right to own and carry weapons, your right to Self-defense no longer exists.

Anyone that loves their freedom here should be shocked at what Britain has done to her People. And there are people right here in this country who want the same thing here.

I don't believe in feeding the lion you are locked in a room with, in the hopes of appeasing it. Sooner or later, the freezer contains no more meat and you are dinner. Best to fight the lion from the very beginning.

Here is an excerpt from the essay, it was co-authored by David B. Kopel, who wrote an outstanding book titled, "The Samurai, The Mountie and The Cowboy," a study of Gun Controls of several countries, etc.

The link to the whole essay is provided at the bottom.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Today, as a result of Parliament's 1967 abrogation of the common law rules on justifiable use of deadly force, should a person use a firearm for protection against a violent home intruder, he will be arrested, and a case will be brought against him by the Crown Prosecution Service.[173] In one notorious case, an elderly lady tried to frighten off a gang of thugs by firing a blank from her imitation firearm. She was arrested and charged with the crime of putting someone in fear with an imitation firearm.[174]

With gun ownership for self-protection now completely illegal (unless one works for the government), Britons have begun switching to other forms of protection. The government considers this an intolerable affront. Having, through administrative interpretation, delegitimized gun ownership for self-defense, the British government has been able to outlaw a variety of defensive items. For example, non-lethal chemical defense sprays, such as Mace, are now illegal in Britain, as are electric stun devices.[175]

Some Britons are turning to guard dogs.[176] Unfortunately dogs, unlike guns and knives, have a will of their own and sometimes attack innocent people on their own volition. The number of people injured by dogs has been rising, and the press is calling for bans on Rottweilers, Dobermans, and other "devil dogs." Under 1991 legislation, all pit bulls must be neutered or euthanized.

Other citizens choose to protect themselves with knives, but carrying a knife for defensive protection is considered illegal possession of an offensive weapon. One American tourist learned about this Orwellian offensive weapon law the hard way. After she used a pen knife to stab some men who were attacking her, a British court convicted her of carrying an offensive weapon. Her intention to use the pen knife for lawful defensive purposes (p.436)converted the pen knife, under British legal newspeak, into an illegal "offensive weapon."[177] In 1996, knife-carrying was made presumptively illegal, even without the "offensive" intent to use the weapon defensively. A person accused of the crime is allowed "to prove that he had a good reason or lawful authority for having" the knife when he did.

Early one evening in March 1987, Eric Butler, a fifty-six-year-old executive with B.P. Chemicals, was attacked while riding the London subway. Two men came after Butler and, as one witness described, began "strangling him and smashing his head against the door; his face was red and his eyes were popping out." No passenger on the subway moved to help him. "My air supply was being cut off," Butler later testified, "my eyes became blurred and I feared for my life." Concealed inside Butler's walking stick was a three-foot blade. Butler unsheathed the blade; "I lunged at the man wildly with my swordstick. I resorted to it as my last means of defense." He stabbed an attacker's stomach. The attackers were charged with unlawful wounding. Butler was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon. The court gave him a suspended sentence, but denounced the "breach of the law which has become so prevalent in London in recent months that one has to look for a deterrent."[178] Butler's self-defense was the only known instance of use of a swordstick in a "crime."[179] Home Secretary Douglas Hurd, using powers granted under the 1988 Criminal Justice Act, immediately outlawed possession of swordsticks.[180] The Act has also been used to ban blowpipes and other exotica which, while hardly a crime problem, were determined by the Home Secretary not be the sorts of things which he thought any Briton could have a good reason to possess.[181]

No prosecution for defending oneself is too absurd. Consider a report from the Evening Standard newspaper in London, dated October 31, 1996:

A man who uses a knife as a tool of his trade was jailed today after police found him carrying three of them in his car. Dean Payne, 26, is the first person to be jailed under a new law making the carrying of a knife punishable by imprisonment. Payne told ... magistrates that he had to provide his own knife for his job cutting straps around newspaper bundles at the distribution plant where he works .... Police found the three knives--a lock knife, a small printer's knife, and a Stanley knife--in a routine search of his car.... The court agreed he had no intention of using the knives for "offensive" purposes but jailed him for two weeks anyway.(p.437)

....

[The magistrate said] "I have to view your conduct in light of the great public fear of people going around with knives...I consider the only proper punishment is one depriving you of your liberty."

At the dawn of the twentieth century, Great Britain was the great exemplar of liberty to continental Europe, but the sun has set on Britain's tradition of civil liberty. The police search people's cars routinely. Public hysteria against weapons is so extreme that working men are sentenced to jail for possessing the simple tools of their trade. The prosecutions of a newspaper delivery men who carries some knives, or a business executive who saved his own life, would likely have horrified the British gun control advocates of the early twentieth century. There is no evidence that most of these gun control advocates, who only wanted to keep firearms out of the hands of anti-government revolutionaries, ever wanted to make it illegal for tradesmen to carry tools, or for women to stab violent predators. The gun control advocates of 1905-1920 could distinguish a Communist with a rifle from a tourist with a pen-knife. But while the early weapons control advocates made such a distinction, they could not bind their successors to do so as well. Nor could the early weapons controllers understand the social changes that they would unleash when they gave the right to arms the first push down the slippery slope.</font>
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http://www.2ndlawlib.org/journals/okslip.html

Now, think carefully the next time you should declare that if they make black hats illegal on your "beat," that you would arrest someone for it. There is something called freedom and although we are a Nation of Laws, there is such a thing as absurdity as well. If you are a Citizen that thinks the Law is always right, you need to take a long, hard look at the World you will be leaving your children. They will be the women being attacked and then prosecuted for defending themselves or your Son will be the Business Executive attacked on a subway who is charged with the crime of defending himself.

And to those that think that it cannot or will not happen here if nothing is done, you are so sadly mistaken.

With all due respect.


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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Some of my Knives and other neat things
 
Unbelievable. I think a HUGE problem is the regulatory power we are giving to so many agancies. For example, the BATF has the ability to simply regulate certain guns into illegality.

In Washignton, we have the Washington Administrative Code, a catch all for any Agency to "regulate" into existence any number of laws. I have yet to charge anybody with a WAC violation, because I just do not believe in them.

None of this should be allowed. Any restriction on rights should be made public and in legislative bodies, not by administrators.

To say a citizen should go to the governmnet for permission to do anything, i.e., design a knife, is laughable; this country was founded on the opposite of this. The government ruling with the permission of the governed.

Such a terrible misunderstanding we have of our own history. Of course, that is no surprise. A few months ago I heard Peter Jennings say our government was based on that of England. I know he is Canadian, but did he never hear of the American Revolution, in which we fought AGAINST the English system? M-O-R-O-N!

A final note. My post, and I am sure Don's, are not intended to insult the several British Suspects and Emerson fans that post here regularly. I respect them and their experiences greatly.

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-Scott Richter
Usual Suspect
 
Great post Don! I've been following some of the threads and it is always surprising how quickly and willingly people seem to want to give up the seemingly few rights they have. I wonder if some people have the mistaken notion that, "If they do 'this' now then it will stop terrible things from happening and then we can give the rights back to the Good people during our time of Nirvana.", as they argue so forcefully you would think there would be some common sense to it all. Sadly, I don't think there is any sense to it. I think if we let people like that influence the choice and speak for us then we have lost everything and we will end up living a modified version of Hitler's Master Plan.

Shawn

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"... Peers don't know what they can't see...
They can't see inside of me... It's sickening
how comforting the privacy of the mind can be..."

-Eve6 ('How Much Longer')
 
No, there was no intent to insult or rile up British Suspects or Law Enforcement at all. That is why I ended the Post, "With all due respect."

I have to say, however, if I were a Police Officer and through whatever situation, I found out someone was carrying something they were not supposed to, and they were obviously just going about their business and the NCIC came back clear, they would be free to go.

I would take a page from the Law Enforcement Officers that I personally know, and they are a dying breed, they are all retiring:

"I don't want to see that, I don't want to hear about it, no excuses, don't speed in the future, be careful and more cautious, go about your business, this never happened. Please sign here."

That's the way it used to be for the most part. The discretion of the Officer has now changed. If you are carrying a Spyderco and you have a jumpy guy who just watched "Surviving Edged Weapons" in In-Service, you're rolling dice.



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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Some of my Knives and other neat things
 
Don, at the risk of offending members of law enforcement, one of the major problems I percieve is, as government and law enforcement become large, they become self sustaining entities and have lost sight of the fact that the role of government and law enforcement is assist the people. They fear the people and do not want to lose thier power,prestige and money. They will do whatever it takes to control the people. Consequently, we have stricter laws and more military equipment issued to law enforcement.
Law enforcement justifies this militray response by saying they need this equipment for protection. When an officer in full military gear with an H&K MP5 is needed to remove a smal boy from a residence, that is excessive. Yet Janet Reno justifies this, by saying, guns might be in the house and the equipment worn is to frighten the people into compliance. There are many occupations in this country where people are at risk for thier lives on a daily business. We try to make the risk minimal to a certain extant but at some point one must "suck it up" and admit to the risk. Law enforcement seems to be saying "We don't want any risk" so we must be over armed and over react to avoid any risk. The people are treated as the enemy.
Governemnt officals and law enforcement confer among themselves and justify this treatment as being needed to preserve the state and thier own health. Governement officals suck the life blood out of the people in taxes and live high on those taxes. the pork is so important that faced with a huge surplus, many don't want to give it back to the people. The rights of the state are superceding the rights of the individual. I don't want to offend law enforecment. My best man was aplice officer and I have met and worked with many fine members of all branches of law enforecment. I hope those that read this can be introspective and self critical before reacting. Your orgiinal post hit a sore spot that I have. Dick
 
Don, I am still young, but I am trying to be the kind of officer you speak of.

I believe with most everything said here about the current state of law enforcement.

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-Scott Richter
Usual Suspect
 
Way to go Don. You are right on the money. I couldn't have said it better myself.
smile.gif


I have this problem at my gun club; the shotgunners vs. the "tactical" crowd. It is sad because the opposition's tactics have always been and always will be to divide and conquer. We are falling into this trap. I see the S&W/Klinton agreement as another step down that path. It is dividing the gun community.

I constanly hear gun owners puff their chest out and say "They'll get my guns when they pry them from my cold dead fingers." I'm sorry, but for the majority of gun owners, I have to cry Bull$h!t! We Americans, for the most part, have NEVER been threatened by another foreign power, or outrightly by a tyrannical government. When the UN troops start going house to house to collect our weapons [yes, it will be UN troops from another country(ies) so there is no moral dilema] most gun owners who have become fat, dumb, and happy with their SUV's, cell phones, laptops, 401(k)s, etc..... will do nothing. They will wet themselves and just comply. We've seen it in Britain and in Australia. Gone will be THE lesson of the 20th Century: more people have been slaughtered by their OWN GOVERNMENTS than in all the wars combined. I think the United States of Apathy will be no different. Right now in North Carolina, the 4th Amendment to the Constitution has been suspended legally by the State Legislature and the Governor to deal with a forseen[read fabricated] outbreak of Foot and Mouth Disease. Iowa and Minnesota have already put into place a plan to declare martial law once it breaks out. Yes people, this is the United States where this is happening. And when it does, where will the "militias" and "patriot groups" be? Crapping their pants along with everyone else. Where was the Florida militia when Janet Reno grabbed Elian? Where was the outcry over Waco and Ruby Ridge? Where were the "patriots" then?

Why should Sarah Brady and her ilk fear us? We're paper tigers - all noise, NO action.

"We have seen the enemy, and it is ourselves."

Thanks. Someone else may have the soapbox now.

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Brigadier
Beretta 92 FS nut and Wave-aholic
"And for this cause God shall send them stong delusion,that they should believe a lie;" 2 Thessalonians 2:11
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove[expose] them." Ephesians 5:11
 
The whole Elian Affair was simple pandering of one Leftist to another Leftist, that's all it was. Faced with another "Boatlift" of criminals and mental patients, Elian was sacrificed for the "Legacy" of one man.

That house was checked voluntarily by Law Enforcement on two occasions prior to the raid, the media blather from Rather was just that. That never had to come off like it did. Did the Agents need those guys in reserve in case a riot erupted? Yeah, in the van, I think so.

The Elian Affair is a prime example of how far we have deteriorated as a Nation.

Through Congressional Act, a Cuban that makes it here is offered Political Asylum.

His Mother died getting him to Liberty and we turned our back on that boy.

His Father had said in the past he wanted Elian in America, but when confronted with prison, you better believe all of that went out the window.

We heard from a certain segment of the population and politics here, about "Parental Rights." There are no "Parental Rights" in Cuba. And his Father was not an American Citizen and therefore had no "Parental Rights" in this country.

It was another emotional Red Herring. Spin.

Sad day.



------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Some of my Knives and other neat things
 
Self defense is an individual responsibility. This is a basic condition of life. What I or anyone else feels, thinks or believes regarding weapons and the laws regulating them does not change this fact.

This is not a popular fact with many who would rather believe that the responsibility of their personal defense should lie with someone other then themselves. It is easier to imagine that the police or some other authority will assume this responsibility.

Considering the possibility of facing people that want to harm oneself and having to react accordingly does bring with it bad thoughts. Its far easier to imagine a society without weapons and subsequently a society without armed violent criminals.

It just doesn't work like that. It is impossible to acheive this and irrational to attempt it.

This fact was not lost on our founding forefathers upon darfting the documants which were designed to serve as the foundation for our government and our laws.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Don Rearic:
The whole Elian Affair was simple pandering of one Leftist to another Leftist, that's all it was. Faced with another "Boatlift" of criminals and mental patients, Elian was sacrificed for the "Legacy" of one man.

That house was checked voluntarily by Law Enforcement on two occasions prior to the raid, the media blather from Rather was just that. That never had to come off like it did. Did the Agents need those guys in reserve in case a riot erupted? Yeah, in the van, I think so.

The Elian Affair is a prime example of how far we have deteriorated as a Nation.

Through Congressional Act, a Cuban that makes it here is offered Political Asylum.

His Mother died getting him to Liberty and we turned our back on that boy.

His Father had said in the past he wanted Elian in America, but when confronted with prison, you better believe all of that went out the window.

We heard from a certain segment of the population and politics here, about "Parental Rights." There are no "Parental Rights" in Cuba. And his Father was not an American Citizen and therefore had no "Parental Rights" in this country.

It was another emotional Red Herring. Spin.

Sad day.

</font>
Click to expand...

Agreed. But I still pose the question: Where were the Patriots? Those federal agents never should have been able to leave that area alive! I know they were following orders, but so were all the German soldiers at the concentration camps. No offense intended to any regualr LEO types that visit here, but if an LEO does something like snatch Elian or shoot Sammy and/or Vicki Weaver, then how are we to trust anyone who wears a similar uniform?

All I'm saying is, "Hey, can the Law Enforcement Agencies/Personnel be trusted to UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION as they swore to do?" Based on the 3 cases cited, I think the answer would be a resounding "NO".

But again, where were the "Patriots". If the LEO's are acting in such a way as Waco, Ruby Ridge, Elian, shouldn't the "Patriots" step up and say Enough is enough? When are we going to draw the line in the sand?

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Brigadier
Beretta 92 FS nut and Wave-aholic
"And for this cause God shall send them stong delusion,that they should believe a lie;" 2 Thessalonians 2:11
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove[expose] them." Ephesians 5:11
 
Oh, I think that many Federal Agents and Police Officers have draw their own, personal, "line in the sand" as to what they will and will not do.

I think it would be unfair to compare the Customs or FBI Agents involved in the Elian Raid with Members of the Schutzstaffel or Einsatzgruppen of World War Two Germany, quite simply because they were taking no one to a concentration camp they had established, although it is an argument that Castro's Cuba is in fact a Concentration Camp.

They were taking no one to the "showers," yet, it does not sit well. Technically, "The Rule of Law" was manipulated and bastardized in the Elian Case.

Waco and Ruby Ridge are off the scale of anything resembling normalcy in a free country and I hope we have seen the end of that sort of behavior.

Anyone who was shocked by any of these things could sit and type for hours, and it would go nowhere. The conventional approach is to paint all Federal Law Enforcement with a very broad, tyrannical and ruthless brush and I think if the truth were known...many Federal Agents across this country were shocked by these things.

They're obviously not all "bad," or we would have hundreds, perhaps thousands of these unfortunate and criminal incidents. We don't, they are anomalies.

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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Some of my Knives and other neat things
 
"Waco and Ruby Ridge are off the scale of anything resembling normalcy in a free country and I hope we have seen the end of that sort of behavior."

I disagree. I think they were trial balloons sent up by the Klintons to gage the public's reaction and to see just how much we are actually Sheeple. We failed miserably. Therefore, the message sent was that there will be no outcry, no trials, no court martials, no jail time.....only promotions.

"They're obviously not all "bad," or we would have hundreds, perhaps thousands of these unfortunate and criminal incidents."

Agreed, that's why in my earlier post I said it would be foreign UN troops doing the rounding up of weapons/dissidents to avoid any moral dilemas. But the sheeple are ripe for the picking, IMHO.

Your initial post targeted passive gun/knife owners. There are too many. There will be no uprising. Just lambs to the slaughter. I've lost faith in the American gun owner. After all, even Charlton Heston says I have no need for my AK-47, and Bill Ruger says I have no need for ammunition magazines that hold more than ten rounds. Then there's S&W, etc................

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Brigadier
Beretta 92 FS nut and Wave-aholic
"And for this cause God shall send them stong delusion,that they should believe a lie;" 2 Thessalonians 2:11
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove[expose] them." Ephesians 5:11
 
One small way That I try to maintain traction on the slippery slope is to introduce our 'right to self-defense' culture to new folks. Sound reasonable arguments, much like what's in this thread, helps explain my beliefs to the less infomed.

In the last two years, I've converted six people, four females, two males into knife and gun advocates.

It's a small thing, but forrests always start with a single sapling.

I did not realize The Usual suspects can be quite eloquent, with minds as sharp as their blades. It's a joy to read.


 
What scares me is this up and coming generation of teenagers. They want everything handed to them. They WANT a nanny state where the gov't is mommy and daddy.

My oldest son just turned five and I've already had to teach him that guns aren't bad, it's the people that misuse them that are bad. He hears the BS at preschool. Keep an eye out for the younger ones. The brainwashing effort is in overdrive now. Even doctors are asking you if you have guns in the house. Find a new doctor.

Once the WWII/Korea/Vietnam vets are all gone, the patriotic will be few and far between, me thinks.
It will be up to a handful of guys and gals like the Ususal Suspects.

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Brigadier
Beretta 92 FS nut and Wave-aholic
"And for this cause God shall send them stong delusion,that they should believe a lie;" 2 Thessalonians 2:11
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove[expose] them." Ephesians 5:11
 
The hallmark of a CIVILIZED society is that a citizen be able to walk dark city streets without fear of molestation.

If we cannot make the streets safe, let us make the citizens dangerous.

Britain (I refuse to apply such ridiculous hyperbole as "Great" to such a nation.) has now descended into Barbarism.

Like the man said,
Every one fights, No one quits, if you run, I'll shoot you myself.

The three boxes of Freedom are, in order
Soap Box
Ballot Box
Ammo Box

We have a right and a moral obligation to use any of those boxes necessary to secure and preserve our freedom.

Let Government fear the day when we are convinced the first two boxes are no longer effective, for if they do not fear it, they shall surely regret it.

MOLON LABE!


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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brigadier:
"Waco and Ruby Ridge are off the scale of anything resembling normalcy in a free country and I hope we have seen the end of that sort of behavior."

I disagree. I think they were trial balloons sent up by the Klintons to gage the public's reaction and to see just how much we are actually Sheeple.

"They're obviously not all "bad," or we would have hundreds, perhaps thousands of these unfortunate and criminal incidents."

Agreed, that's why in my earlier post I said it would be foreign UN troops doing the rounding up of weapons/dissidents to avoid any moral dilemas.</font>
Click to expand...

Well, the KlintStones are history. They are a bad memory. Hillary is a Senator, New York was going to have two liberal Senators anyway. She took over Moynihan's Senate Seat, Daniel Patrick Moynihan is the one that threatened a Draconian Tax Increase on Defensive Ammunition after the L.I.R.R. shooting because Winchester's Black Talon was used by Colin Ferguson. Which caused Win. to yank BT from Civilian Purchase. The point is, she is no worse in reality than that tired old windbag.

They're gone, let's see what W does.

As for the UN, the UN is a failed instrument in almost every endeavor, they cannot even control emaciated Somalians for God's sake, they won't be able to deal with us on this terrain. They might as well forget it if, if, one wants to believe that the UN coming here is a viable option for them to consider in case of Civil Unrest.

Before they go door to door, they better worry about how they are going to control the hundreds of thousands of alcoholics, crack and heroin addicts the cities of this country have to offer them, freaking out and going into fits for their fixes before they think this place would be a cakewalk.

I don't like the UN, but I cannot subscribe to the various theories and fears surrounding them. The only time they are worth a damn is when their "Peacekeepers" are made up of Americans and that would defeat the purpose of using them here. Back to square one.

If they ever did do it, it would simply not be up for debate. They would have their asses handed to them.




------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Some of my Knives and other neat things
 
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