Dozier CPM S30V?

[nozh2002]

The difference according to a Crucibler chart is very small. I doubt you'd notice a difference in actual use if that chart is accurate. Perhaps a good heattreat would make a difference in that too...

I doubt Crucible put Dozier D2 in it's chart, he has his own HT and Crucible charts are not applicable. He is not doing this by Crucible recommendation.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[PatriotDan]

I doubt Crucible put Dozier D2 in it's chart, he has his own HT and Crucible charts are not applicable. He is not doing this by Crucible recommendation.

Thanks, Vassili.

Do you have information on Dozier's D2 toughness as compared to S30V from any manufacturer?

 

[cotdt]

The difference according to a Crucibler chart is very small. I doubt you'd notice a difference in actual use if that chart is accurate. Perhaps a good heattreat would make a difference in that too...

Crucible said that they designed S30V to be as tough as A2. I never used S30V so I wouldn't know.

 

[PatriotDan]

Crucible said that they designed S30V to be as tough as A2. I never used S30V so I wouldn't know.

None of us would if there are no test results available. Here's the Crucible chart among other tech info..

http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dss30vv4b.pdf

 

[nozh2002]

Do you have information on Dozier's D2 toughness as compared to S30V from any manufacturer?

No, no one have. However toughness does not play significant role in edge holding unless edge is chipping out, if it is not - then hardness play most role. And this is why ZDP-189 is on top.

I have my own conspiracy theory about CPM S30V:

To my understanding CPM S30V was compromised steel. It came right when Crucible stop producing CPM S60V. With CPM S60V going away - Crucible suggested to cutlery industry to use CPM S90V as better then CPM S60V in all regards. But cutlery manufacturers suggest Crucible to came up with something they will be able to machine on their equipment.

This is how CPM S30V came to existence - Crucible create something 6 times less wear resistant then CPM S60V, but sounds similar. It is much easy to grind as well. Intend was that CPM S30 will be entry level powder metallurgy steel, while premium will be of course CPM S90V. But this did not happen as Crucible thought.

Then it was only matter of marketing to present it as newest genius super steel, while it was actually step back from CPM S60V. Yes it was intentionally designed for knives, but with grindability in mind first. However it was pretty heavily promoted - never see anything else being promoted at this scale.

So - I do not have too much hope for CPM S30V, really. And test results does not show it as supersteel in edge holding. Even on same Buck 110 - BG-42 and CPM-154 clearly ahead of same blade same Paul Boss HT CPM S30V.

Dozier D2 is different story, I believe that it has some different special heat treatment, nobody else know. I think he somehow cut some corners and do something different then everybody else does.

D2 composition is same as ancient bulat and may be he does thermocycling same as Wirtz doing or something else - who knows. But for sure his blades are quite ahead of everything. This is what many hunters speak up, this is what my tests show as well.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Josh K]

Isn't S30V supposed to be tougher than D2 when heat treated well?

 

[Josh K]

No, no one have. However toughness does not play significant role in edge holding unless edge is chipping out, if it is not - then hardness play most role. And this is why ZDP-189 is on top.

I have my own conspiracy theory about CPM S30V:

To my understanding CPM S30V was compromised steel. It came right when Crucible stop producing CPM S60V. With CPM S60V going away - Crucible suggested to cutlery industry to use CPM S90V as better then CPM S60V in all regards. But cutlery manufacturers suggest Crucible to came up with something they will be able to machine on their equipment.

This is how CPM S30V came to existence - Crucible create something 6 times less wear resistant then CPM S60V, but sounds similar. It is much easy to grind as well. Intend was that CPM S30 will be entry level powder metallurgy steel, while premium will be of course CPM S90V. But this did not happen as Crucible thought.

Then it was only matter of marketing to present it as newest genius super steel, while it was actually step back from CPM S60V. Yes it was intentionally designed for knives, but with grindability in mind first. However it was pretty heavily promoted - never see anything else being promoted at this scale.

So - I do not have too much hope for CPM S30V, really. And test results does not show it as supersteel in edge holding. Even on same Buck 110 - BG-42 and CPM-154 clearly ahead of same blade same Paul Boss HT CPM S30V.

Dozier D2 is different story, I believe that it has some different special heat treatment, nobody else know. I think he somehow cut some corners and do something different then everybody else does.

D2 composition is same as ancient bulat and may be he does thermocycling same as Wirtz doing or something else - who knows. But for sure his blades are quite ahead of everything. This is what many hunters speak up, this is what my tests show as well.

Thanks, Vassili.

First off, you have to take anything Vassili says with a grain of salt. He's often wrong and gives his own opinions as facts or presents them in a very misleading manner.

His "testing" to grade steels is questionable at best and rarely is repeated for accuracy (the one time he did he got very different results).

S30V was created in conjunction with Chris Reeves as a highly stainless, equally tough, very wear resistant steel. It has a large amount of vanadium carbides while the CPM process keeps the carbide size small and evenly distributed.

 

[cotdt]

Dozier D2 is different story, I believe that it has some different special heat treatment, nobody else know. I think he somehow cut some corners and do something different then everybody else does.

D2 composition is same as ancient bulat and may be he does thermocycling same as Wirtz doing or something else - who knows. But for sure his blades are quite ahead of everything. This is what many hunters speak up, this is what my tests show as well.

Thanks, Vassili.

From what I know, based on what Dozier has said, his heat treatment of D2 is similar to how simple steels are treated, but he uses several thermocycles and allows the grain to grow, and air cools, no cryo treatment afterwards. You end up with very large sized grains, like the ancient version of the steel.

 

[nozh2002]

From what I know, based on what Dozier has said, his heat treatment of D2 is similar to how simple steels are treated, but he uses several thermocycles and allows the grain to grow, and air cools, no cryo treatment afterwards. You end up with very large sized grains, like the ancient version of the steel.

Can you please, point me to his words? I really like to read his own words on this matter.

This is exactly what I suspected! Multiple thermocycling does not make grain grows but instead make carbides migrate to dendric (tree like) structures left by vanadium traces creatin some kind of internal support foe steel matrix re-enforcing steel same way iron re-enforce concrete.

More about this you may read in Achim Wirtz articl he wrote by my request for my website (check metallurgy section):

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Bulat-Achim.html#English

Achim melting iron and carbon and vanadium himself doing diffusion heating etc... But this is already done in factory for D2 - Dozier seems like skips step Achim doing himself and just buys premanufacured wootz-bulat as D2 and proceed right to thermocycling.

However Achim saying he is doing about 50 cycles. I am wondering about Dozier?

As I understand same does Kainnun pukko makers during forging cycling happens just naturally.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[DennisStrickland]

gayle bradley [cutting contests several yrs] told myself he thought cpmd2 showed interesting possibilities .for sure kershaw j.y.d. doe'nt display these results.i understand dozier tweaks d2 & one of the processes is a triple temper.

 

[2brothers]

Dennis, I still cannot always make out your posts.
Could you elaborate a little more for me?
Thank you.

mike

 

[cotdt]

Can you please, point me to his words? I really like to read his own words on this matter.

This is exactly what I suspected! Multiple thermocycling does not make grain grows but instead make carbides migrate to dendric (tree like) structures left by vanadium traces creatin some kind of internal support foe steel matrix re-enforcing steel same way iron re-enforce concrete.

More about this you may read in Achim Wirtz articl he wrote by my request for my website (check metallurgy section):

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Bulat-Achim.html#English

Achim melting iron and carbon and vanadium himself doing diffusion heating etc... But this is already done in factory for D2 - Dozier seems like skips step Achim doing himself and just buys premanufacured wootz-bulat as D2 and proceed right to thermocycling.

However Achim saying he is doing about 50 cycles. I am wondering about Dozier?

As I understand same does Kainnun pukko makers during forging cycling happens just naturally.

Thanks, Vassili.

Well I searched for it but I could no longer find Dozier's original posts on the matter.

Based on your article and what you say about forming the dendritic structure, then you would get higher concentration of carbides in localized regions, which would be very very hard and wear-resistant. It would be toothy after some initial wear, but slice better. Hence, my initial hunch is supported, Dozier D2 has unfair advantage in slicing tests.

 

[nozh2002]

Well I searched for it but I could no longer find Dozier's original posts on the matter.

Based on your article and what you say about forming the dendritic structure, then you would get higher concentration of carbides in localized regions, which would be very very hard and wear-resistant. It would be toothy after some initial wear, but slice better. Hence, my initial hunch is supported, Dozier D2 has unfair advantage in slicing tests.

As I sad before

First - carbides does not create teeth but gust re-enforsment for steel matrix - same as stones in concrete. They does not contribute in cutting at all.

Second - my test measure sharpness by pushing edge through thread, no slicing at all.

Third - Dozier edge as good as it is just sharpened no any sign of wear out. Rough toothy edge and what Dozier came after test demonstrate absolutely different numbers. In general Dozier just keep initial edge almost as it was right after sharpness, no any of this microserration crap at all.

Forth - I cut manila rope in one motion with does not have too much slicing. But it does not matter because after this I check sharpness and do not care how rope was cut.

Fifth - It cuts better then other steel, hold edge better then other steel, what kind of fairness we are talking about?

And finally - do you own test, so your opinion will be based on you own first hand experience. Microsseration in myth introduced to sell something nobody remember now what - probably damascus, but this is simple wrong concept and no one so far do anything wich may prove it.

Regards, Vassili.

 

[Gator97]

However toughness does not play significant role in edge holding unless edge is chipping out, if it is not - then hardness play most role.

That was monumental...

Anyway, toughness is related to hardness and for most of the steels the relationship is pretty well defined, there are graphs, charts and other data.
Therefore, chipping is related to toughness as well, along with other steel properties, kni8fe edge thickness, grind, material used, cutting style etc.
To characterize toughness and its role Vassilii did is simply invalid.
Chipping on what? How thick is the edge? What is being cut and how? Chopping and twisting the blade isn't exactly the same as slicing you know.

And this is why ZDP-189 is on top.

Hmm, I figure he's had a change of heart, so far D2 was on the top...

 

[Ken44]

How in the heck am I supposed to use my ignore feature around here when you all keep quoting:grumpy:

 

[sodak]

I currently own the K-4 straight hunter in s30v along with a SNG, XM-18, and several benchmades and spyderco's. I would have to say Doziers s30v is on the same level as these others and could be better but I haven't done a comparison to say one way or the other. I do not at this time have a Dozier in D2 to compare because I live in southeast Louisiana and felt a stainless would serve me better. I can tell you this though because of the quality and performance I have had with the K-4 within the next week I will have a K2 in D2. Any knife made by Dozier and his crew is top notch.

The K2 will blow you away. I think it's his best knife, and they're all great (I have several). It's a great combination of cutting power, size, ergonomics, etc. Just a great knife all the way around.