Dragonfly Wharncliffe mistaken as razor?

Joined
Jul 14, 2020
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Hello everyone.
I am in the market for a good EDC knife, and the Dragonfly 2 Wharncliffe appeals to me very much because of it's utilitarian design and cool sexy looks.
I love Spyderco's, and they are pretty much my only go-to option when in the market for a knife for various reasons.

California knife laws, in my particular city, are very weird in the sense that you cannot carry what is considered a "dangerous weapon" if you are "Loafing or loitering about".
Anything else is pretty much ok.
I work as a bike messenger, and I am technically always "loafing or loitering" when waiting for calls, taking a break somewhere, etc.
Thanks to Spyderco for making a bunch of knives that are technically under the legal limit!
So many < 3" options to choose from for a good solid EDC knife.

I'm afraid to carry a Native 5 (probably my favorite of all of the knives i've been looking at) because although it is technically under 3", when I look at videos of people measuring it with a tape measure device, it can still look like it is 3", particularly if you measure it from the tip to the very bottom of the choil.
The law is defined such that >= 3" is considered a "dangerous weapon".
So i'll probably have to sell the one that I own.
Really sucks, because that shape seems EXTREMELY useful if I were to ever need a knife on the daily as a survival tool, and it just seems to cover most/all bases for a knife.
It's also gorgeous.
The little native is too small and too expensive for what you get out of it IMO. But it's still on my list.

I can't afford a lawyer, so I very much doubt that I will be in a courtroom with a precision measuring instrument, so if I do get an EDC, I want one that won't even make it to the courtroom, and cannot in any way shape or form even be interpreted as breaking a law of some sort and cannot result in an arrest.
I don't ever do anything suspicious, give cops any kind of reason to question me, or even really get pulled over for any reason, but I want my bases covered.

I love the shape of the wharncliffe dfly 2, and in pretty much every situation where I would need a knife, that blade shape just seems much much better than a bellied leaf shape.
However, a dangerous weapon under the city ordinance ALSO mentions that a "straight razor, or razor attached to a handle" can also be considered a dangerous weapon.

So my question is:
In a situation where I run into the worst officer, who for whatever reason just has it out for me and doesn't like the way that I ride my bike or something, could the wharncliffe blade be interpreted as a razor because of it's straight shape? Would it even get past a judge (without a lawyer and a not guilty plea)?
I'm assuming that if they REALLY DID try to convict me for a "straight razor" wharncliffe, they would have to ban ALL wharncliffes from that point forward, and include them in their description of straight razors.

Also, am I being a little too worried with the native 5?
I know that most cops wont' care, but if I run into THAT ONE, who just "decides" that it's too long for his liking, without a lawyer, can I show manufacturer spec (which shows 2.95") to a judge and be good, or will it have to come down to something that I will need a lawyer to measure?
Again, I don't ever do anything (other than ride my bike kinda like a douchebag sometimes) that arouses suspicion, and I never purposefully put myself in any kind of weird, dangerous, or questionable situation, but I AM "loafing about" quite often.
It's really IMO the perfect EDC (hard choice between that and the para 3), and with S35vn, it will probably be the only knife I will ever need and cover most/all survival/utility situations. Just such a perfect size and shape IMO.

Thanks in advance.
 
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I should first state that planning for running into the "worst cop ever" is a waste of time. A dirty and/or incompetent cop isn't even going to operate within the law, as happened in Sorrell v McGuigan where the cop made an arrest for a 100% legal knife (the charges were dropped, the cop was sued successfully in federal court for false arrest). Remember, cops are not lawyers, and in my extensive study of knife laws, they generally have other concerns in their duties and so usually only have the most basic understanding of their local knife laws. In the US, knife laws are not primary offense charges in most cases, but rather are "excuse charges" when you did something completely unrelated to make the police suspicious. I go into details in my longer essay here: http://weaponlaws.wikidot.com/start

For the laws, I would find it absurd that anyone would call a wharncliffe a "straight razor." Straight razors are a very specific item with several defining features that make them distinct under the regulations of the California Board of Barbering & Cosmetology (contrary to popular belief, they are legal for shaving in CA). Just having a non-curving cutting edge isn't enough to make something a straight razor. A cop charging someone in this way would be laughed out of court.

I also am curious if your interpretations of your local laws on loitering and the limitation on blade length are correct, since you didn't identify your city but allude to some laws I've seen before. For example, in Los Angeles, there is a misconception you are limited to a <3" blade. This is not true; you just can't open carry longer blades, and using the knife openly to do legal activities are not considered to violate this regulation (the law was meant to prevent people from carry large fixed blades in an attempt to appear menacing without making an verbal threat). Similarly, loitering is usually defined as "lingering in a public or private place with no apparent purpose." But being a bike messenger on call is an apparent purpose. I can't see you getting hassled for that unless you're making a nuisance of yourself.
 
CA is the state that put a guy in jail because he had a SAK in his pocket open. They decided it was "Dirk".

If the area where you live is known for hassling people I would make sure any kind of knife you've got isn't going to cause an issue. Since bike messengers rarely go off the grid survival shouldn't be an issue.

Look at some kind of multi tool that has a blade. That will be more useful than a knife and keep it in your bag with any other bike tools so the intent isn't hazy.
 
I should first state that planning for running into the "worst cop ever" is a waste of time. A dirty and/or incompetent cop isn't even going to operate within the law, as happened in Sorrell v McGuigan where the cop made an arrest for a 100% legal knife (the charges were dropped, the cop was sued successfully in federal court for false arrest). Remember, cops are not lawyers, and in my extensive study of knife laws, they generally have other concerns in their duties and so usually only have the most basic understanding of their local knife laws. In the US, knife laws are not primary offense charges in most cases, but rather are "excuse charges" when you did something completely unrelated to make the police suspicious. I go into details in my longer essay here: http://weaponlaws.wikidot.com/start

For the laws, I would find it absurd that anyone would call a wharncliffe a "straight razor." Straight razors are a very specific item with several defining features that make them distinct under the regulations of the California Board of Barbering & Cosmetology (contrary to popular belief, they are legal for shaving in CA). Just having a non-curving cutting edge isn't enough to make something a straight razor. A cop charging someone in this way would be laughed out of court.

I also am curious if your interpretations of your local laws on loitering and the limitation on blade length are correct, since you didn't identify your city but allude to some laws I've seen before. For example, in Los Angeles, there is a misconception you are limited to a <3" blade. This is not true; you just can't open carry longer blades, and using the knife openly to do legal activities are not considered to violate this regulation (the law was meant to prevent people from carry large fixed blades in an attempt to appear menacing without making an verbal threat). Similarly, loitering is usually defined as "lingering in a public or private place with no apparent purpose." But being a bike messenger on call is an apparent purpose. I can't see you getting hassled for that unless you're making a nuisance of yourself.


I live in San Francisco.
Yes, being on call is definitely something that is probably not considered "loafing or loitering", is likely covered, but I also sometimes get something to eat and sit down somewhere randomly to eat said item.
I'm technically "not working" and "off call" when I'm hanging out in areas because I am classified as an independent contractor.
Sometimes I also find odd spots to hang out if I'm sent across the city on a call.
And, as mentioned before, sometimes I ride my bike for fun and/or to get somewhere faster in a manner that can draw attention.
Then again, I've literally never been stopped here or have ever even spoken to an officer for any reason other than making a report.
I've been questioned on federal land, by a federal park officer, but that was because I was hanging out at a park, and it was likely a casual conversation likely intended to "get a feel" for who I was since I was in that park often and I don't look wealthy.

But I just want to be covered, and just for piece of mind, I obviously want to avoid "grey areas" and "ride on the very edge of what is considered legal".
If I'm not "loafing or loitering", and/or if I carry the knife for utilitarian purposes (actual current reason for owning one) I can technically carry any length, but I would rather carry a length that is covered under all situations, or have very clear guidelines (no ambiguity) as to where you can and can't carry said length.
For example, you cannot carry anything with a length greater than or equal to 2.5" on school grounds, but I'm never or rarely on school grounds for any reason, and I would just leave the knife in the car if I were to go onto school grounds for some reason. Easy.
And frankly, for my purposes, I can't see any situation where I would need something very long anyways and it would likely be more cumbersome than useful.
The "just under 3"" offerings by Spyderco just look and seem perfect for EDC. They're also very light.
If I were to have just ONE knife that covers ALL bases and would be something great to have if I needed it on the daily for utility (especially considering how unemployment is getting much worse from the pandemic and we could be on the verge of economic collapse), I would rather carry the Native5 than the dragonfly.

But for the most likely real life situations, I want to avoid the extremely unlikely situation of arrest/summons altogether, but if it really came down to it, I would like a knife that is clearly defined under the law, under most/any/all situations, so that it would get immediately tossed out or defended in an extremely easy manner.
Eg. (This is obviously under 3", so no matter what I was doing, even if I am classified as "loafing or loitering" under some extreme circumstance with the worst combination of officer/judge/courtroom, it is very clearly legal).

So am I riding in a grey area with the Native 5, or will it be extremely easy to simply state manufacturer spec?
I know that the harshest legal definition of blade length is a straight-line measurement from tip to the forward most part of the choil.
However, that's "legal definition" in a courtroom, and a cop can easily bust out a ruler (or more than likely just use their fingers), measure the tip to the bottom of the choil (which is still likely under 3"), and try to confiscate, arrest, or write a summons.

With a bad situation in mind, if the blade can be measured from tip to bottom-most part of the choil, and looks like it is 3" for some reason, would I be in a situation where I would likely avoid charges only if I hired a lawyer, or would it be something where I can easily represent myself and bring a ruler, manufacturer spec, or something else and drop the case?
I also understand that most people on the forum aren't lawyers, but many have actually been through and read about many situations (and cases) where these things have happened.

I would just hire a lawyer for an hour and ask them these questions, but money lol.

Thanks!
 
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