Dragonforge
- Thread starter Chang
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My general rule -- and I don't think I've ever seen it fail yet -- is this: If they just say "440", it's almost always 440-A. If the company was using the (usually) more desireable and expensive 440-C, they would advertise that specifically. Consider it 440-A until you have definitive proof that it's not!
Joe
Joe
I agree with Mr. Talmadge. There is no "440" - when folks say that, they always mean 440A. The only exception I've seen are the S&W SWATs, which most sites call "440" but are apparently 440C. If someone IS making a knife in 440C and calls it "440," they get what they deserve.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
Ivan Campos
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Mr. talmadge and corduroy are absolutelly right. I have yet to see a "440" blade being 440C.
Ivan
Ivan
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Hi guys,
I'm just referring to what I saw on the website of Master Knives, which is www.masterknives.com . They claim it's 440C. Some of the models on the website which has 440C, were upgraded to AUS8A when it was already under Dragonforge.
How can one tell the difference between 440A and 440C anyway? I own a couple of Dragonforge and Master knives here for playing around with (not serious usage), and if it's 440A, then it's one helluva knife considering its edge-holding ability.
My own general rule is this: If the knife was made in China, chances are it's 440A, as it's pretty easy to dull, and close to impossible to attain a razor edge on those things. But with those Taiwan-made knives, they can attain a razor-sharp edge when resharpened, easy to sharpen, and maintains the edge unlike the China-made ones.
If tests are needed to determine the blade material (i.e. how long before edge dulls, how fast to sharpen it, etc) could somebody please give me some ideas on how to test? I have a couple here which I can test it out with.
Dan
I'm just referring to what I saw on the website of Master Knives, which is www.masterknives.com . They claim it's 440C. Some of the models on the website which has 440C, were upgraded to AUS8A when it was already under Dragonforge.
How can one tell the difference between 440A and 440C anyway? I own a couple of Dragonforge and Master knives here for playing around with (not serious usage), and if it's 440A, then it's one helluva knife considering its edge-holding ability.
My own general rule is this: If the knife was made in China, chances are it's 440A, as it's pretty easy to dull, and close to impossible to attain a razor edge on those things. But with those Taiwan-made knives, they can attain a razor-sharp edge when resharpened, easy to sharpen, and maintains the edge unlike the China-made ones.
If tests are needed to determine the blade material (i.e. how long before edge dulls, how fast to sharpen it, etc) could somebody please give me some ideas on how to test? I have a couple here which I can test it out with.
Dan
If it works, it works - who cares what steel it says it's in. But knowing the steel before buying will give you a rough idea what sort of performance to expect. There are many other variables, most importantly heat treatment. I've seen German knives in 440C that I felt out-cut any production knife in ATS-34 that I've seen, but that doesn't mean that 440C is the better steel in general. Similarly, I've had much better luck with my own knives in ATS-34 than with production knives in that steel. Go figure.
I think testing an edge is important, by seeing how easily it sharpens, how quickly it dulls, and whether it chips or flexes under lateral force. But if you already own the knife, don't worry about testing to find out what the steel is, just how it performs.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
I think testing an edge is important, by seeing how easily it sharpens, how quickly it dulls, and whether it chips or flexes under lateral force. But if you already own the knife, don't worry about testing to find out what the steel is, just how it performs.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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Read the Steels FAQ: http://www.bladeforums.com/features/faqs.html
In low-buck knives, selling in the $2-$20 US range, steels are seldom specified in advertising because they're usually nothing to brag about. "Stainless steel" or "surgical stainless" means 420 and it's the worst. "440" means 440A and it's better. AUS8 or AUS8A is comparable to 440B and is better than "440." "Carbon steel" means something in the 10xx series and holds an edge much better than any of the cheap stainless steels, and it's tougher, too, but of course it'll stain. Personally I like the patina carbon steel develops and the performance is much better than any of the low-buck stainless steels.
The one advantage of the low-buck stainless steels is good corrosion resistance. If you really need a stainless knife 440A is a good choice.
When somebody comes out with a $100 knife made of 440A we all make disparaging remarks about the steel, but if you're in the market for a $10 or $20 knife and you want a stainless steel then 440A is good and so is AUS8. If you don't need it to be stainless, though, you'll be much better off with a low-buck "carbon steel" knife.
-Cougar Allen :{)
In low-buck knives, selling in the $2-$20 US range, steels are seldom specified in advertising because they're usually nothing to brag about. "Stainless steel" or "surgical stainless" means 420 and it's the worst. "440" means 440A and it's better. AUS8 or AUS8A is comparable to 440B and is better than "440." "Carbon steel" means something in the 10xx series and holds an edge much better than any of the cheap stainless steels, and it's tougher, too, but of course it'll stain. Personally I like the patina carbon steel develops and the performance is much better than any of the low-buck stainless steels.
The one advantage of the low-buck stainless steels is good corrosion resistance. If you really need a stainless knife 440A is a good choice.
When somebody comes out with a $100 knife made of 440A we all make disparaging remarks about the steel, but if you're in the market for a $10 or $20 knife and you want a stainless steel then 440A is good and so is AUS8. If you don't need it to be stainless, though, you'll be much better off with a low-buck "carbon steel" knife.
-Cougar Allen :{)
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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If you have a couple of knives made of known steels it's easy to compare a new one to the ones you have -- the difference in edge-holding between 420 and 440A and AUS8 is obvious. You don't need any sophisticated double-bind testing procedures to see it. I always sharpen a knife as soon as I buy it (even if it's sharp enough to meet my standards (seldom) it's never at the angle I want). I can tell as soon as I start sharpening. Unfortunately there's no way to test before you buy.
-Cougar :{)
-Cougar :{)
Maybe someone should consider publishing a new manual for knife buyers titled " The Complete Idiot's Guide to Blade Steel".
In it would be a easy to read reference chart of all known knife steels in the order of best to worst, and which steels manufacturers are known to use.
The preface could be written by Lynn Thompson, so he can expound on the virtues of AUS 8, and AUS 10.
In it would be a easy to read reference chart of all known knife steels in the order of best to worst, and which steels manufacturers are known to use.
The preface could be written by Lynn Thompson, so he can expound on the virtues of AUS 8, and AUS 10.
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420 is almost impossible to sharpen to a decent edge. If I do end up with a sharp edge, it gets lost pretty easily just by cutting up cardboard.
I find AUS8 easy to sharpen, and can hold an edge pretty well.
These $20 as fun to keep for regular meager tasks like letter openers, etc.. For the more serious tasks, I use the more trusted ones.
I guess you guys are right, it doesn't really matter as long as it works.
Dan
I find AUS8 easy to sharpen, and can hold an edge pretty well.
These $20 as fun to keep for regular meager tasks like letter openers, etc.. For the more serious tasks, I use the more trusted ones.
I guess you guys are right, it doesn't really matter as long as it works.
Dan
- Joined
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Phillip --
When I started learning about knives, I wished there was some canonical listing of knife steels too. Best-to-worst, as you suggest. As you learn more, though, you find out that there is simply no such thing. There are many jobs to do, and many tradeoffs to be made. Is ATS-34 "better" than 440-A if we're talking about a salt water dive knife that needs maximum stain resistance and prying toughness? Is BG-42 better than 1095 if we're talking about a heavy chopper?
The best way to learn about steels is to forget these absolute "X is better than Y" rankings. What you want to learn instead is: X is very stain resistant, pretty tough, doesn't hold an edge well. Y is not stain resistant, very tough, holds an edge pretty well. Now given a particular job -- heavy chopping, say, or salt water diving -- it becomes easier to decide which steel is better for that particular job.
Of course, things still get more complicated quickly. Maybe X doesn't hold an edge well, but can be differentially heat treated, and with a very hard edge it *can* hold an edge pretty good.
Anyway, my suggestion is to completely forget trying to rank steels in an x-is-better-than-y fashion, and start learning about each steel on a case-by-case basis. Yes it's slower and more difficult, but you'll end up with a much more accurate picture. One of the best way to learn about two steels, BTW, is to compare two identical knives with different steels. Wanna know the difference between GIN-1 and ATS-55? You can buy an old and new delica for very little money and test it out for yourself!
Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
When I started learning about knives, I wished there was some canonical listing of knife steels too. Best-to-worst, as you suggest. As you learn more, though, you find out that there is simply no such thing. There are many jobs to do, and many tradeoffs to be made. Is ATS-34 "better" than 440-A if we're talking about a salt water dive knife that needs maximum stain resistance and prying toughness? Is BG-42 better than 1095 if we're talking about a heavy chopper?
The best way to learn about steels is to forget these absolute "X is better than Y" rankings. What you want to learn instead is: X is very stain resistant, pretty tough, doesn't hold an edge well. Y is not stain resistant, very tough, holds an edge pretty well. Now given a particular job -- heavy chopping, say, or salt water diving -- it becomes easier to decide which steel is better for that particular job.
Of course, things still get more complicated quickly. Maybe X doesn't hold an edge well, but can be differentially heat treated, and with a very hard edge it *can* hold an edge pretty good.
Anyway, my suggestion is to completely forget trying to rank steels in an x-is-better-than-y fashion, and start learning about each steel on a case-by-case basis. Yes it's slower and more difficult, but you'll end up with a much more accurate picture. One of the best way to learn about two steels, BTW, is to compare two identical knives with different steels. Wanna know the difference between GIN-1 and ATS-55? You can buy an old and new delica for very little money and test it out for yourself!
Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
- Joined
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- Messages
- 5,461
All the blades that are listed 440 on the Dragon Forge site are actually 440C except for the Sensei which is 440A now and will upgrade to 440C later this year. Most will be upgraded again to AUS-8 when we can. I did not list the letter behind the name because at the time I was not even sure myself as I had conflicting info from the maker.
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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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Hey everybody -- Mike said Dragon Forge is changing from 440C to AUS-8 and he called that an upgrade!
Put on your asbestos coveralls! Get out your flamethrowers! Warn the medics to expect casualties! Cancel all leaves! This thread is about to get interesting!
-Cougar Allen :{)
[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 03 June 1999).]
Put on your asbestos coveralls! Get out your flamethrowers! Warn the medics to expect casualties! Cancel all leaves! This thread is about to get interesting!
-Cougar Allen :{)
[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 03 June 1999).]
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Opps. Basically what I meant was that some will be upgraded to AUS-8 and others will go to 440C. The jury is still out on which ones will get what steel. Most will go from 440A to AUS-8 and now I see in hind site that I worded that poorly.
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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
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Aw shucks ... I was hoping for a really good flame war here. Oh, well.
While I'm here I'll add that although we can't very meaningfully rank the good knife steels on a linear scale from good to better to best because every steel is a compromise and the best compromise depends on the intended use, when we're only considering low-buck stainless steels the situation is simpler. Even in those steels there's a compromise but it basically goes on a linear scale with worst edge-holding/best corrosion resistance at one end and better edge-holding/slightly inferior corrosion resistance at the other. The low-buck stainless steels are all biased toward poor edge-holding, though (because poor edge-holding steels are easy (cheap) to grind into knives), and all have good corrosion resistance.
So, unless you have an unusual need for really superior corrosion resistance you can forget about that when choosing between low-buck stainless steels. Few of us would choose 420-J2 for its corrosion resistance even for salt-water diving.
I know there are plenty of people reading these forums who can't afford to spend a lot of money for a knife, and I'm afraid the lower-buck options available tend to get neglected by the regular posters.... If you're looking for an affordable knive and you want stainless, don't let all this talk about super-steels give you the idea the knife you're looking for doesn't exist. AUS-8 makes a decent knife; even 420 knives are much more usable than you might think from reading these forums. If you have to settle for 420 you'll have to sharpen more often, and depending on what you use the knife for you might want to carry a little pocket hone and touch it up in the middle of a job. As long as you keep touching it up, though, it'll cut as well as anything else.
-Cougar Allen :{)
While I'm here I'll add that although we can't very meaningfully rank the good knife steels on a linear scale from good to better to best because every steel is a compromise and the best compromise depends on the intended use, when we're only considering low-buck stainless steels the situation is simpler. Even in those steels there's a compromise but it basically goes on a linear scale with worst edge-holding/best corrosion resistance at one end and better edge-holding/slightly inferior corrosion resistance at the other. The low-buck stainless steels are all biased toward poor edge-holding, though (because poor edge-holding steels are easy (cheap) to grind into knives), and all have good corrosion resistance.
So, unless you have an unusual need for really superior corrosion resistance you can forget about that when choosing between low-buck stainless steels. Few of us would choose 420-J2 for its corrosion resistance even for salt-water diving.
I know there are plenty of people reading these forums who can't afford to spend a lot of money for a knife, and I'm afraid the lower-buck options available tend to get neglected by the regular posters.... If you're looking for an affordable knive and you want stainless, don't let all this talk about super-steels give you the idea the knife you're looking for doesn't exist. AUS-8 makes a decent knife; even 420 knives are much more usable than you might think from reading these forums. If you have to settle for 420 you'll have to sharpen more often, and depending on what you use the knife for you might want to carry a little pocket hone and touch it up in the middle of a job. As long as you keep touching it up, though, it'll cut as well as anything else.
-Cougar Allen :{)