Dry Ice and ????

Makes sense, thanks.

+1 for kerosene

I have been using kerosene and dry ice - in a small (dedicated) ice chest - it seems to work well, and I am generally hitting my hardness numbers. I just let it sit for a day or so to let off the CO2, then pour back in to the jar and wipe out the chest. The smell isn't all that bad, but I grew up around kerosene.
 
I think that application of Boyle's Law would not go well at all. All putting it in a vacuum would do is lower the boiling point of the alcohol and increase the sublimation rate of the dry ice. This would cause an almost explosive boiling. In a few minutes or seconds ( depending on how great the vacuum was and the pumps ability to maintain it) there would be nothing but the blade sitting in the chamber.
 
So if I put it in a pressurized chamber it would last longer???? Ah, but it would not get as cold.
 
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Technically, yes....but it could also be a bomb if not properly done.
By changing one variable in Boyle's Law, you affect the others. Since the temperature of the dry ice is the constant in the beginning, the pressure and volume are the variables. If the container is sealed, the volume would become the constant....thus the pressure would be raised as the temperature starts to rise from the dry ice warming slowly due to the sublimation. The boiling point of the alcohol, and the sublimation point of the dry ice would rise until equilibrium was reached. This would make the temperature rise more slowly on the entire system, making the dry ice last a bit longer. However, the pressure could become possible great enough to burst the containment vessel, causing an explosion, leading to a catastrophic drop in pressure and temperature. It would snow dry ice crystals, and possibly send out shrapnel.


Even if done in a proper chamber, there would be little or no gain in knifemaking..... as the dry ice last much longer than needed at STP.
 
Technically, yes....but it could also be a bomb if not properly done.
By changing one variable in Boyle's Law, you affect the others. Since the temperature of the dry ice is the constant in the beginning, the pressure and volume are the variables. If the container is sealed, the volume would become the constant....thus the pressure would be raised as the temperature starts to rise from the dry ice warming slowly due to the sublimation. The boiling point of the alcohol, and the sublimation point of the dry ice would rise until equilibrium was reached. This would make the temperature rise more slowly on the entire system, making the dry ice last a bit longer. However, the pressure could become possible great enough to burst the containment vessel, causing an explosion, leading to a catastrophic drop in pressure and temperature. It would snow dry ice crystals, and possibly send out shrapnel.

Even if done in a proper chamber, there would be little or no gain in knifemaking..... as the dry ice last much longer than needed at STP.

Ah, but you could put a regulator on the chamber. I wouldn't do actually do this because the benefit would not be anywhere near worth the effort. Just thought I would throw out the other side of the coin.

Even water sealed in any kind of chamber can create lots of pressure when temps rise. I know of an instance where 2 men where killed by welding on a closed in water line. I have seen piping systems and vessels fail from being totally close in just with change in weather temps. Hydrocarbons are really bad about this. Can be spectacular when real heat is added. We used to test the lines from the plant to the wharf in this manner closing them in late at night under one pressure and as the day warmed they would reach the needed test pressure and we would relieve the pressure. I know, kind of off topic, but, something to consider when messing with stuff that expands and/or vaporizes. Dry ice and some water in a large plastic pop bottle makes quite a pop. On the other end of the scale I saw a large tank that was closed during a warm day badly suck a wall in during the night because the vent was blocked by believe it or not a piece of plastic.
 
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This is so timely and helpful as I am preparing to attempt my first heat treat. I must ask a dumb question I hope you help me with: At what point do you remove the stainless metal from the foil?
 
NECROPOST - this is 5 years old
Don't bring old threads back from the grave start new ones.
 
I would look at the Sub-zero / Cryo as two separate things .
If you want to reduce retained austenite use sub-zero .Lower temperatures to further reduce RA doesn't do much
If you want to produce eta carbides then use cryo. The eta carbides form after LN treatment when you temper the blade . The LN treatment is a diffusion process tweaking the matrix .The temper is at 300 F . After the 300 F don'go up and do the 'secondary hardening ' thing , it will destroy the eta carbides.
 
<A lot of good info snipped>

Final comment:
A freezer, no matter how good, will do nothing to make the blade harder or tougher ( not even if it sits there overnight). It requires reaching the full Mf at -95F to get that gain.

Good info!

And I get that this is the general rule of thumb. But there seem to be exceptions (as always). For example, Sandvik stainless 14C28N.

They specify:

2 tempers at 175 degC will give you 59 HRC
2 tempers at 175 degC AND a -20 degC deep freeze will give you 60 HRC
2 tempers at 175 degC AND a -70 degC deep freeze will give you 62 HRC

http://smt.sandvik.com/en/products/...ife-steel/hardening-guide/hardening-programs/

Regarding the deep freeze. I use denatured alcohol in a sealed ammo can in which I pour my dry ice pellets. When my blades are done I just let the dry ice sublimate (overnight with the lid semi open). When it's all done I just seal the lid of the can to avoid contamination and evaporation for the next batch of blades.

EDIT: Dang it! I just realised this was a necropost. o_O
 
2 tempers at 175 degC will give you 59 HRC
2 tempers at 175 degC AND a -20 degC deep freeze will give you 60 HRC
2 tempers at 175 degC AND a -70 degC deep freeze will give you 62 HRC

When you see those lists/charts, the deep freeze/cryo info is not in order. It is done immediately after quench once the steel reaches room temp. It is not done between or after tempering.

I regularly see people state that the cold treatment in dry ice is to reduce/convert RA. This is partly true, but it is not really RA until after the quench has been finished. The main reason is that the Mf is near -100°F for high alloy and stainless steels. That means the quench isn't done until the steel is near the temperature of dry ice. What the dry ice bath or cryo does is finish the conversion of the austenite you formed by heating the blade in HT. Merely cooling the blade to room temp or sticking in the home freezer won't finish the conversion of austenite. If left in that state, it would have RA.

If you look at those Sandvik specs, you will notice that there is only a small gain by cooling it to the temperature of a commercial blast freezer. However, it really makes a gain by cooling down towards the temp of dry ice. This will increase the hardness 2 to 3 points in most all stainless steels.
 
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2 tempers at 175 degC will give you 59 HRC
2 tempers at 175 degC AND a -20 degC deep freeze will give you 60 HRC
2 tempers at 175 degC AND a -70 degC deep freeze will give you 62 HRC

When you see those lists/charts, the deep freeze/cryo info is not in order. It is done immediately after quench once the steel reaches room temp. It is not done between or after tempering.

I regularly see people state that the cold treatment in dry ice is to reduce/convert RA. This is partly true, but it is not really RA until after the quench has been finished. The main reason is that the Mf is near -100°F for high alloy and stainless steels. That means the quench isn't done until the steel is near the temperature of dry ice. What the dry ice bath or cryo does is finish the conversion of the austenite you formed by heating the blade in HT. Merely cooling the blade to room temp or sticking in the home freezer won't finish the conversion of austenite. If left in that state, it would have RA.

If you look at those Sandvik specs, you will notice that there is only a small gain by cooling it to the temperature of a commercial blast freezer. However, it really makes a gain by cooling down towards the temp of dry ice. This will increase the hardness 2 to 3 points in most all stainless steels.

I agree. I was just curious that there actually was a difference in hardness when deep freezing at -20 degC.

According to their chart the deep freeze (-20 or -70 degC) was done after quench and before tempering, which to my (limited) knowledge is the correct order of operation.


2.png
 
To explain that diagram for those new to the metallurgy involved:
The diagram is called a continuous cooling curve. The most important word is continuous. It should have as few delays as possible.


A is the austenitization point. In most stainless knife steels it is around 1060C/1950F.

Q is the quench. The rate of drop varies from almost straight down for 1095 to very slow for some high alloy stainless steels. What is required is that the drop take if past the pearlite nose at 540C/1000F while the structure is still austenite.

At that point the structure becomes supercooled austenite. The term supercooled does not mean it is cold ... it is still 480C/900F ... but that the structure would have changed to pearlite if cooled slower. Basically, we tricked it into staying austenite. The structure will remain supercooled if the rate of cooling stays at a medium fast speed. The exact speeds can be found on the metallurgical charts for each steel.
When it hits the Martensite start point ( the white line crossing about two thirds down the Q line) it will suddenly start to convert to martensite - called the Ms point.

The cooling from there converts more and more austenite into martensite. At room temp, 20C/70F, all the austenite has converter for carbon steels, but only about 80-90% for stainless steels. The small rest is to fully allow the stel to equalize at room temperature. On some very delicate parts, there is a short snap temper done at 150C/300F at this point, but for most all stainless knife steels, this isn't necessary.

DF is deep freeze. The cooling curve then continues down into the sub-zero range. At -20C/-5F most of the austenite has converted to martensite. There may be 5% to 8% left, called retained austenite ... RA. The knife blade would work OK, and the hardness is about one Rockwell point higher than it was at room temp.
If you continue the cooling by taking it down to the martensite finish point ... Mf, at -70C/-95F, At this point, all the austenite that will convert has. It will have gained another Rockwell point of hardness, too.
( The Mf for carbon steels is around 100C/200F and well above room temp, which is why a deep freeze treatment does nothing to harden the blade more. There are a few carbon steels that have a lower Mf, but they are still in the room temp range.)

T is the temper. The blade is warmed to room temperature and then placed in an oven at a point near the Ms. This is usually a bit above the Ms, between 200C/400F and 230C/450F. The blade is baked for an hour or more, cooled to room temperature, and re-tempered again. During these tempers, the small amount of retained austenite is converted into martensite, which makes for a harder blade. On some high RA steels, it is given a third temper. During each temper, some of the RA converts into new brittle martensite as it cools to room temp. The second temper will temper this new martensite. Usually, there is a minute amount of retained austenite that will not convert, called stable austenite. This is not actually a bad thing, as it adds a tiny amount of extra toughness.

CRYO, is not shown n the graph, but it is done by taking the blade past the Mf during the sub-zero cooling, and into the the super cold region around -250C/-400F. This creates structures that will become very tiny eta-carbides during the temper cycle. This will increase the blade hardness by one more Rockell point.You only have one shot at making these structures, and a subsequent cryo will do little to increase the hardness.
 
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Your a wealth of information Stacy. Some of it is still way over my head though. So is sub zero and cryo usually used only on high carbide steels, and stainless? Does it help simple carbon steels in any way? I've read that it can only benefit. But is it really worth the effort? Or just a piece of mind?
 
Sub-zero and cryo are two different things . There's enough evidence that almost all the reduction of RA is done by the time you reach sub-zero. The next thing would be to go to LN cryo temperatures .What happens at sub-zero depends on the type of steel. Some will still have significant RA , some won't . You can minimize it by lower austenitizing temperatures. It's not all bad ,sometimes a bit of RA is good .Important is stability of the structure you don't want changes in time. That means double or triple temper .In critical applications steels are chosen that will have lower RA for gage blocks for example ! Other applications such as bearings a bit of RA is desired !
 
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