dumb question #2

A

anewguy

Joined
May 8, 2003
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165
I had originally posted this question on the axe/hatchet link but I haven’t gotten a single bite yet, and because this question revolves around backpacking gear I thought I would give ‘er a try over here. hope no one minds—thanks

In response to a previous “dumb question” of mine, I have been turned on to swamp rat knives. While browsing their site I happened upon “Paul’s Ratchet” and I must say that I was very tempted to order one (I have been using a buddy’s Gerber Back Paxe on past camping/backpacking trips). However, after reading many of the post on this forum, it sounds like you guys are in favor of the Gransfors (sp?) axes/hatchets. So here it is, dumb question number two, how do these two products (and I am thinking specifically of the smallest GB axe, I think it is called the wildlife hatchet) compare? And before I try to explain away anything I will admit that I think the “Ratchet” looks better (yeah, I’m a dork, I know). OH yeah, what do you guys think about SWKW “Penetrant Inspection?” (www.swamprat.com/specs.html) sorry if I have exceeded by quota of dumb questions in one post, thanks in advance for any help you could offer.
 
Hiya A.N.G.

No dumb questions there that I can see. :)
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Couple of quick points:

1. The smallest Granfors-Bruks (GB) hatchet is the Mini-Hatchet model. Pic & specs here, although I would recommend shopping around for a lower price: http://www.countryknives.com/store/product.asp?sku=GBA410&mscssid=XTHFFC3UAHNH8M0N7XSXNNSM4NJSE2AC

2. Comparing SRKW Paul's Ratchet to GB mini-hatchet (or any other steel-blank cut axe/hatchet ala Ratchet vs a full-size cast- or forged-head axe/hatchet like a GB) is kind of an "apples to oranges" comparison. The intended uses & marketing of the two hatchets are different (specialized?) enough to motivate the designs and manufacturing processes in different directions.
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You would be getting more relevant "apples to apples" data returned if you were to compare the Ratchet to the similarly-constructed Greco hatchet, some of the Mineral Mountain blank cut hatchets, RMJ Forge Eagle Talons, or others of that type. Although in that field, the Ratchet is the only one IIRC that has a rubber-type handle.

In any case, when used within their intended uses, the Ratchet and the GB mini-hatchet (10.25" handle) or the GB Wildlife Hatchet (next size up at 14" handle) are quality-made units that should ride pretty easy on your belt or in your pack and do a good job for you.

With that said, if you are new to using axes (i.e. like me are still dangerous to yourself due to inexperience swinging an axe around ;) ) you may want to look at carrying a folding saw for sectioning out branches and a beefy knife (7"-12" blade with a thick spine) for splitting the sectioned-out rounds. Most of us really don't need tools to fell full-size trees when we're outdoors, rather just bust up smaller branches. The folding pruning saws from hardware stores, gardening or home centers, or online vendors work great for that job. FWIW, the folding saws are a LOT lighter than axes, weighing mere ounces.

For most camping & survival needs, you realistically won't need to work with wood more than about 5"-6" thick maximum. And using branches that thick would be to split-out dry heartwood tinder/kindling in sustained wet conditions. Most of the time (dry wood occasions) and in most scenarios, the wood you're using for fire & shelter making is quite a bit smaller (up to about 3" thick). Bigger logs for longer-lasting fire can simply have their ends dragged into the fire pit for ignition by the smaller stuff that's already burning.

Hope that helps a bit,
-- Greg --
 
I've got a buddy who bought the GB Mini, used it a while and liked it, but thought he'd try something else. He bought the Greco hatchet (which is really pretty close in size and construction to the Swamp Rat thing) and found that the light weight and poor weight distribution of the Greco hatchet made it a poor chopper. The Mini, although lighter overall, chopped better due to the fact that most of the weight was in the head, as it should be with a hatchet.

The Greco and Swamp Rat "hatchets" may look cool, but that's all they have going for them. I think you'd do better to look at a traditional hatchet design and work with that. BTW, a good alternative to the GB (75% of the quality for a third the price) is the Wetterling line. If GB's are the Rolls Royce of the ax world (and they are, by pretty much unanimous decree) then the Wetterlings are Cadillacs. Don't cost as much, don't look as nice, but work just as well. I have a Wetterling Small Hunter hatchet, and it does great work, and you can get them for about 20 to 35 dollars, if you look around.
 
Wow! Thanks a lot guys, I really didn’t realize that there was that much of a difference. You really gave me something to think about. BTW, when my buddies and I go backpacking, we used the gerber axe as a splitting tool as much as a chopping tool. Is there another item that may be better for this purpose (the need for a splitter is why I had originally ruled out the folding saw idea)? Anyway, thanks again for your help, I really do appreciate your understanding/experience.
 
Another alternative to a hatchet would be a Khukuri or khuk. for short.

These are curved knives from Nepal and associated with the Ghurka elite fighting men.

Most traditional khukuri designs are basically utilitarian in purpose.

The khuk's will chop wood, split wood and serve both as knife, prybar. You can also use it as a light hammer and shovel, but completely as ad-hoc.

Combat knives are generally 1/4" thick, khuks usually run 1/2" thick.

Check out the Himalyan Imports forum in the makers/manufacturers forums area.

Here's the one I just bought for about $65 on sale. Regular price around $125.

693WWII.JPG
 
Duh,
I’m sorry, I just re-read the first reply and saw that my question was addressed. However, it still seams to me that a knife with that long/thick of a blade would be rather heavy as far as cost/benefit goes(when you have the weight of the knife and the saw as compared to the just the axe), less effective as a splitter, and not that usefull as a tool in other chores (I already carry both a multi-tool and a large folding knife). However, I admit my ignorance, as I have only been on a handful of outings and my understanding could very well be flawed. I welcome any corrections in my thinking—thanks again
 
i have a gransfors bruks hunters axe and think it is unbelievabley versatile in making a fire, chops, splits, even makes fuzz sticks. they hold their edge as the steel is a lot harder than the average axe. if you are looking for a cutting implement they have few peers. they come in a varios sizes for different uses. i am waiting for delivery on a mini now to try out.

a large bladed knife, becker brute, bk 9, bk 7, all work well with the baton at splitting wood, to get at the dry center for fire starting. any of these blades (and many others ) will serve you well in the fire and camp building tasks you might need to accomplish. i have written about these as i have tired them out personally. some guys like the cold steel shovel as a wood splitting and do all camp tool i have not tried it in this role.

many on this forum have various experiences that are reflected here as to what works best for them, it seems that you can read our opinions but in the end you need to try various blades for yourself to find the best tool for you good luck and have fun.

alex
 
Originally posted by anewguy
Duh,
I’m sorry, I just re-read the first reply and saw that my question was addressed. However, it still seams to me that a knife with that long/thick of a blade would be rather heavy as far as cost/benefit goes(when you have the weight of the knife and the saw as compared to the just the axe), less effective as a splitter, and not that usefull as a tool in other chores (I already carry both a multi-tool and a large folding knife). However, I admit my ignorance, as I have only been on a handful of outings and my understanding could very well be flawed. I welcome any corrections in my thinking—thanks again
Click to expand...

Pound for pound, an ax will readily outchop any other chopping tool. That said, hatchets are not axes. The khukuri family can chop just as well as a hatchet, with a greater cutting surface and no handle to break. Overall, in chopping Khukuris have larger cutting areas where less accuracy is required, rendering the khukuri safer than an a hatchet.

Can't say too much about the splitting aspect. I have both the GB Hunter's Ax and a 18" AK khukuri from H.I.. I fully expect the GB to chop better and whittle better due to the thinner edge profile.

In the end, you personal preferences, budget and skill level in addition to activities will dictate what is best for you. I chop a lot of wood when in and around the campsite, so I find that a medium or full size ax is best. The khukuri's make better travel companions when paired with a multi-tool and small folding knife.

If you already have a combat knife, then the small forest ax, hunter's ax would go well. Just remember that GB axes are precision tools and can not take too much abuse. Khukuris are designed to be pushed to extremes.

In my experience, the khuks are the best bang for your buck.
 
Originally posted by anewguy
Sundsvall,
how do you think those compare to the BK&T machax?
Click to expand...

The BK&T Machax will be considered to be lower quality than HI's khukuri's. HI's khuks are handforged from 5160 high carbon steel and are guaranteed for life!

Comparing a BK&T Machax and a HI khuk is like comparing a GB Hunter's ax and Gerber ax.

One is handmade and more robust. The other is mass produced with quality that is optimized for profit.

Different.
 
sundsvall-
what do you think about the blade angleshape differences between the two? (matchax and HI)
 
Well, there are quite a few models of khukuris that vary in weight and chopping angle. Therefore you would have to compare a specific model.

The one thing I can say is that the Machax is 1/4" thick, therefore it will bite deeper and bind more often that the 1/2" thick khuk.
 
The matchax has about 9’’ blade, so I supposed as compared to a model with a similar length marketed as an “all around” type of blade (as opposed to the more fighting type model)—I guess I am asking specifically about the more rounded belly(?) of the matchax as compared to the more tapered or “pointy” ends of the HI. It seems to me (again, an uniformed opinion) that the added “ball” on the matchax would aid in chopping, what do you think?
 
The khuk image that I linked above is a 16.5" WWII and is considered a good all-around tool/weapon.

The Machax is thinner and has a more acute profile. I would tend to think that the machax is designed for more soft foliage chopping.

The WWII khuk will handle wood better and not be as good for chopping light foliage.

The Machax has a full tang and large polymer handle slabs. Some like this some don't. Personally, I don't really like Becker handles, so for me, it is not a good choice.

YMMV.
 
This is my other khuk - 18"Ang Khola. More utility and power. Chops like an ax.

2.3 lbs. 18" OAL.

bura_ak-3.jpg
 
From your further responses, ANG, it seems that what you're looking for is a backpacking "combo" that will provide you with firewood, aid in shelter building, and do other general camp chores as well. And since you want this to be used for backpacking, light weight would be a plus.

If this is the case, I'd suggest a good folding saw (to chunk limbs and deadwood into manageable lengths) and a robust 6 to 8 inch fixed blade knife for "everything else". With a baton, as alco pointed out, a large knife will make short work of splittng firewood, and be more versatile overall than a hatchet. Also, the knife/saw combo would be a lot safer if you're not experienced with a hatchet, or are tired; even the most competent woodsman can be hurt if tired and stressed, a definite possibility under survival pressures.

My "big knife" is a Fallkniven A1. It takes to a baton like it was made for the task, and splits out large diameter wood easily. It can also be used for all the other knife chores that are likely to come up day to day. Good alternatives to the A1 are the BK7 or BK9, if you want a larger blade. Even the Cold Steel Bushman makes an adequate splitter, and is light and doesn't cost much. The Kabar "Marine Utility" is another good choice, but the BK7 is an updated version of the Kabar and is a MUCH better design overall. There are so many knives in the 6 to 8 or 9 inch range that almost any of them will do well for the purposes you've outlined.

I'm a huge fan of khuks, and they make incredible splitters and choppers, but they're awfully heavy for backpacking. Hope this helps. But as has been pointed out, the only real solution is to get out there and try a few different tools to see which best suits your needs and skill level. Good luck on the search, bud. :~}
 
The HI BAS and 12" khuks are very light weight and suitable for backpacking. The BAS model is standard issue for the modern Ghurkas. I find the handles to be a tad small. There is a chart made a forumite that goes by the handle "Pendentive". I used to chart to determine the khuks with acceptable handle size.

But at that size there are alot of other choices like the Busse, Strider, Randall, Falkniven, Swamp Rats, Cold Steel, Kabar, etc.
 
I don't have the ratchet but I have other swamprat knives and love them. I do have the BG hatchet an love it. It's pretty small, I can't imagine the ratchet doing something the GB couldn't do but I could imagine the GB chopping better than the ratchet, of course I don't have one so it's all conjecture. The GB hatchet is pretty small, sometimes I wonder if I should have gotten the one the next size up, it's pretty small too. But my little hatchet will fit anywhere and chops a lot better than cheap hatchets I usually use. Very sharp! Would be a very good defense tool if the need be and will fit in my camelbak urban kit just fine. Heck, get them both and post a review! We'd all like to know! :)
 
Well,
You all certainly gave me a considerable amount to think about, and I have pretty much conceded that a hatchet may not be the best tool for me. Thanks for your input. I have however changed my mind from a howling rat to a camp tramp based upon a lot of your recommendations for a larger fixed blade. On a side note, I was talking to my dad about the idea of the khukuris(sp?) and he went into his closet and produced two that look virtually identical to the first one posted on this thread. He said that a friend of his went to hike up part of Everest in the early eighties and came back with a few of these as souvenirs (I’m working on getting pictures up). Are the markings on the blade and handle pretty standard (so that these could be knock-offs)? The blade is quite a bit more tarnished than the ones in the pictures, I would assume from being cooped up in that leather(?) sheath for the past twenty years. Oh well, I guess I am not really asking another questions, just letting you guys know that I have read, and taken into consideration what you have taken the time to tell me, thanks again.
 
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