dumped in the drink "what if"

kresky said:
I have to say, if you are canoeing somewhere that's just above freezing, and all you have attached to your belt is one edged instrument and one firestarting tool, you are in fairly bad shape.
If you're somewhere where there's a danger of ending up in such a circumstance, I'd hope you'd be wearing some very warm clothing, either wool or synthetic so that it would keep insulating somewhat even if wet, and have at least some bare survival kit attached to you. At least a tarp, some sort of flashlight, and a whistle, in addition to the knife and firestarter.
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Kresky, you are correct.
In this scenario, Liam stated it's just above freezing, so It's safe to assume we are wearing warm clothing, several layers and a shell. With that, you can carry a small arsenal of the standard gizmos in the various pockets of your layered clothing. Compass, beef jerky, pint of Southern Comfort? :D

I always assume the least gear, hoping if it ever were to occur, I'd have more than just the knife. I think Liam proposed the knife and fire kit, so as to focus on that aspect of getting out of the immediate Deep Kimshee.

If you've been dumped in Cold Water. IF it's below 40°F outside, it's time to get warm, FAST! period. All other considerations of shelter, what I'm doing tomorrow, etc. are out the window until I'm out of hypothermia danger, and then have time to think slowly & clearly.

PS: I have been dumped overboard in tidal waters (salt water) in the fall, it's pretty dammed cold. Back in the boat you are shivvering something fierce , fingers and toes totally numb, and that's only after being in the water for about a minute, until they fish you out. It's a shocker. When your head submerges, man, you feel the warmth go out of your brain instantly.
it gives you an instant headache, like when you have eaten icecream too fast, brutal.

It takes your breath away, then there is a reflex to exhale and inhale very quickly, and this is where people suck in water to the lungs. If that happens you are in really deep DooDoo.

I've been in small boats (like a row boat) that have gotten swamped by sudden rain storms too, but that was summer, not "as" cold, but still a wierd feeling to see only the gunwale still above water. Bail Bail Bail!!!
My dad taught me, always carry a one gallon clorox bottle, with top cut off, but leave the handle on it. Makes a great bailer.
:thumbup:

When I was a little kid I fell off the end of the pier numerous times. :D
Always playing trying to fish things out of the water, next thing you know, lean to far over and Splash!! My dad did NOT appreciate having to come in to fish me out. :mad:

So, I guess you can say I have some experience falling into cold water. ;)
I can't even explain to you how much of a shock it is to your system.

Do this: Fill your bathtub with cold tap water, which is usually somewhere about 50 degrees, or so. Add Hot water, or whatever if it's too cold, just get it to 50°f
With your clothes on, get in the tub and do your best to submerge.
It's pretty freekin cold!!
Or go outside, wearing your jeans, and t-shirt when it's cold out. Have someone hose you down with the garden hose, in 45°f weather. Again, gives you a taste for the magnitude of coldness you will be dealing with.
But nothing compares to total immersion.

*Moral of Story: This is why I am not addressing shelter in this thread, the ONLY thing on your mind is going to be getting warm, and it can literally take HOURS to totally warm back up, even if you were only in the river for several minutes.

RescueMike and others with formal training can probably expand on this. Immersion into cold water is the quickest way to achieve full blown hypothermia, anywhere outside of the artic.
It's no joke.
 
My first priority would be to make a big fire, one that would have me dry in an hour or so. I haven´t fallen out of many boats and washed up on shore but I have been soaked to the skin many times in the bush and that is what I do when it happens.

The first premise is the thing that gets me. If you wash up on shore with a knife and a firestarter its because they were secured on your person in such a way that they would be with you under such circumstances. You have to make sure that this is the case with your basic kit. Many people don´t even think to tie their packs into a canoe. The last place you want to be is fifty feet away from your kit, fifty feet down that is.

The best way to deal with this scenario is to avoid it totally by making sure the basics are secured on your person. It may be inconvienient but survival gear isn´t camping gear in a pack. IMO if you refuse to carry it in a secure manner it really isn´t survival gear. Mac

EDITED TO ADD:

I was in the States this January in PA. My brother and I got out for an overnighter. All that nice weather was gone for a few days and the overnight low was 18F. OK that´s not nuclear winter type cold but I´m used to Brazil at this point so it was plenty cold for me. Anyway, when I work I sweat. I live in the tropics and my body really knows how to pour it on. I had a very hard time not sweating on the hike in. Once we got camp set up I knew I would have to dry out or freeze. I had laid out a fire earlier but hadn´t lit it. After sundown I had the full body shivers. I threw down a trioxene bar on top of a pile of kindling, lit it, threw on another pile of kindling and got things cooking real fast. Once I was all crispy again it was all good.

My point is that when you might encounter serious cold/wet conditions it is wise to have a real blowtorch of a method for getting a fire going quickly. When I know I´m going to be in serious cold I keep at least one trioxene bar on my person. I´ve done that for years but this is the first time I felt like I had to use it.

One other thing. Stacking the wood on the fire in nice square layers will give you a good base of coals and is good for cooking. If you want lots of heat and right now then make a tall teepee out of the wood and get the flames up a half meter. That will give you lots of radiant heat to dry off your clothes and throw against reflectors or shelter roofs etc. My brother drove me nuts with this out there. Every time he´d put wood on the fire it was in nice neat cookout layers. He was standing there in like $1000 of department issued Goretex and underarmor, "What difference does it make?" I was in no mood to cut of the forzen parts and lay them on the fire.
 
ras said:
The lesson in scenarios like this is that if you don't have it on you when you enter the water, you won't have it when you get to the beach. I picked up a Survival Sheath Essential Survivor Chest Rig specifically to keep a minimal survival kit on me. In this scenario it would be under my PFD, regardless of the other stuff on my belt. So I'd have a keyring flint and steel and a SAK Rucksack (and a Photon micro light).
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That one goes in the "favorites" list!
 
Don't get there in the first place. Know the river and portage if you can't handle it. Like the others said, thy gear will be tied to the boat. Sooner or later, it will get wrapped around something and you may be able to scavange your gear. Waterproof bags will end up somewhere down river too. Chances are your easiest way out is going to be down river anyway. With your trip plans given to a trusted friend or family member, they know when and where to look for you and if you leave enough signs, the SAR group will know which way you went if you don't stay put.

Make a fire and get dry/warm; assess situtation while drying out; make a shelter; scavange for pots, containers--- anything of use; accumulate enough firewood for the night, make a spear and fire harden the end; set up for signal fires. See if you can locate what's left boat and gear. It seems we have more than enough water--- too much in this case --- purify if possible. Look for food sources-- berries, cattails, fish, frogs, rabbit trails. Make spears/traps/snares to suit. Decide whether to wait for help or hike out.

Seek the intervention of a higher power :D
 
I have not been in cold water, but here is a cold experience. One dark night, for some reason I did not have gloves on, I was leaving a house and the temp was about -25F or slightly less. I walked out of the house, put a box in the truck, went back and locked a couple things up. Total time was slightly over 2 minutes, with a few secs of holding some metal padlocks. By the time I tried to start the truck to leave, I could not shut the door with my fingers, I had to grab the armrest w/ my elbow. Turning the key to start the truck was putting my clenched hand over the keys and rotating my arm/shoulder to start truck. There was 15 minutes of having my hands crammed in the defroster duct before I could make my fingers work. If a person goes overboard in cold water in cool weather, their preparations should have been more than having a knife and metal match strapped to them.
I am not trying to be a pain, just explaining. The thread makes me think about how I approach my next cool weather canoe trip.
 
I usually participate in the Polar Bear Plunge Anually In NJ its usually in the teens to twnties or colder with the wind off the ocean. the ocean water is usually in the fourties.

I generally stay in for about two minutes and take some pictures with the waterproof camera before heading out.

Luckily i am in a bathing suit so all i have to do is is dry my skin and put on the handy layers of warm clothing i keep near buy and make my way to a hot meal.

I will unfortunateley miss this year due to work.
 
Any Cal., you bring up an excellent point. In stressful situations where your hands are really cold it is very easy to drop your knife or cut yourself. If you are cold you should warm your hands by putting them in your armpits or crotch before you pull out the knife or lighter IMHO. Slicing a tendon or dropping (and loosing) a tool in snow/water could easily mean Game Over.
 
Any Cal. said:
The thread makes me think about how I approach my next cool weather canoe trip.
Click to expand...

That was the intention really, that and how important fire is. I want to really practice my bow drill technique and make sure on top of that I have no less then three ways to start a fire, as well as some good tinder. I came across this when I found the new firestarting methods in my thread last week, and it got me thinking.
A lot of people would be lucky to have even a bic and a knife when dunked. Nature provides water, food and a sharp stone for a knife to build a shelter, but fire is a bit trickier, espically when soaking wet and shivering.

http://www.sirmailorder.ca/show_prod.php?product_id=540424&cat_id=7&subcat_id=10&PHPSESSID=b2a49047592c306f4682fd66b933bb41
 
A life jacket also helps reduce the shock of cold water to your system by adding some insulation to your torso. Also means you float if you are unconcious for a second, minute.
 
Point one, unless you have a life vest under that survival vest and the canoe goes over, you are now an anchor.

it does not take very much extra weight to make you seriously non buoyant. Tie every thing to the boat. Almost all canoes are going to float very well even with several hundred pounds of gear tied to it.

If you do go in the drink, You should have clean and dry clothes in your pack in a water tight bag. even if it ijust an extra pair of Long johns, it will keep you warmer than anything wet you have on. Most fleece can be wrung out and air spun to dry pretty well. If you need a survival fire, this is where the water proof matches, the quart of white gas or other emergency fire fuel comes into play. it is not too hard to build a roaring fire pretty fast if you have something in reserve to get it going. WE all know the options but getting a hot fire burning is usually not hard in canoe country.

I was recently shown some new stuff, a mix of magnesium, some sort of grease, and alumina powder that supposed burned at like 1800 degree for 5 minutes per inch. Came in a tooth paste like tube. I have to get some and try it out, the little video the guy was showing was mighty impressive. Hot enough to start wood that was sitting in a bucket of water until he pulled it out and built a little Teepee fire with a inch and half long bead of this wonderfuel on the inside. When survival is no longer a game, using diesel, white gas or even your t shirt as fuel to start a fire is just fine.
 
I would like to add that you keep your wits about you. I was running my boat going upriver several years ago when here comes a boat floating down river with no one in it. I grabbed a spare rope that I had and grabbed the boat and tied it up and kept going upriver. Well it wasn't long before here is this guy in the middle of the river hagging on to what was left of a tree. This guy was so out of it he would not respond in any way, shape or form. I guess he was scared to death. I was by myself and I was afraid to pull him into the boat if he wasn't even going to help me get him in. So I stayed with him about 30 minutes when 3 of his buddies from upriver came looking for him. He never said a word to any of them either as much as they tried. They then pulled him into the boat and thanked me and took off to where I said I had tied the boat up. Fear will eat you alive.
 
Magneto,
If that's the river I think it is I know how cold the water is. Was that fear or shock?
 
I guess I should have been specific to the rivers. I was born and raised in middle Georgia. It was on the Ocmulgee river. (Georgia) It was summer. The water wasn't that cold. But I don't know how long he had been there. Let me add something about river safety. Trees. When trees wash down river they almost always have the root systems downriver and the branches or limbs upriver. So when you float down river you hit the limbs first. Which are at a 45 degree angle. This is nothing but silent death. You will hit the limbs and the current will push you under and push you down to the trunk where you may not be able to get away. If you find yourself in the water floating toward trees, try your best to avoid them, it may save your life.
 
Pict, excellent story about the fire. :thumbup:
The tall fire is definately necessary for warming and drying out.

Once again, we conclude that Fire is so important. Going from Brazil to PA in January had to be quite a shock to your system! For most of us in the Lower 48, 18°F is cold enough.

I've tent camped down to the teens, and it's still pretty cold, even when you are dry with proper gear. I'm no hero, I'll say it like it is, Cold is cold.

I had asked about carrying a trioxane or Esbit tab in a PSK a while back, thought it was a good idea , but you just sealed it, for good, for me.

We've gone on annual trips to the mountains every Oct/Nov and sometimes we run into freezing temps. Those folks without proper cold weather gear end up spending the night next to the campfire. Done that too. It's not bad, except for constantly having to roll over, your front is toasty, your backside is freezing, then "switch".
 
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