Eager but Confused Knife Newbbie!!!!

[Nano Cacho III]

Hi Guys!!!

This is my first posting here! I have only recently become interested in knives as a weapon. My knowledge base is next to ZERO on this as my only knowledge of knives are as table and kitchen implements and cutting tools!! I am basically a Gun Enthusiast. A Colt 1911 Addict and Fanatic to be exact. It was my "misguided" Glock fanatic brother who is also into knives who got me started on knives. I did Some research (Surffing) and the info I found was Staggering!!!!! I would humbly like to request from you learned gentlemen some enlightenment on these issues. Such as:

1. In KnifeArt.Com I found some little knives that sell for as much as US$ 4,500!!!!!! Thats more than a brand new pistol!!!! Thats even more than a full house custom pistol!!!!!! FOR A KNIFE???????? HOW????? WHY?????

2. Combat/Defence ammo has to penetrate at least 10-12 inches to be "effective". Most "Tactical" knife blades I saw were 3"-4"????????? How can they be used for combat/defence???? You'ld have to shove your whole arm into a man to get to his heart, lungs or liver????

3. My bro and his friends prefer the Emerson Knife, but its not readily available here in Manila so they buy Spyder and Benchmade knives instead. Are the Emersons really that good?????

4. US$ $4,500++ For a knife????? A knife????? A Brand new (52 parts) Colt 1991A1 NRM costs about US$ 800!!!! US$4,500 FOR A KNIFE?????

5. What is the primary reason for you guys enthusiasm with knives??? as Weapons??? or as Tools perhaps????

I am inquiring because I have become interested in knives as possible weapons. Any information you gentlemen could provide would be most welcome! Thank you Very Much!!!

God Bless!

Sincerely Yours

Nano Cacho III

 

[Planterz]

$10,000,000 for a PICASSO?!?!? It's just a friggin' painting!!!!!

OK, jackassery aside, art takes different forms. A $4,500 knife is more than just a cutting tool. We're talking hundereds of hours of hand-made craftmanship and attention to detail, materials, and artistic realization. I understand if a particular knife isn't worth $4,500 to you, or even $450 (which isn't unreasonable for a custom "tactical" knife). But to somebody it might be, which is what the maker is obviously hoping for. And yes, people do buy knives at these price levels.

To put it in your terms (jackass mode back on), why spend $3,000+ on a Les Baer custom tuned 1911, when a Glock 21 .45 can be had for a mere $500? I mean, the 1911 is almost 100 years old! Should a gun require $2,500 worth of modifications and 500 rounds of break-in to be reliable? Only 7+1 rounds? The G21 holds twice that!

The point is, it isn't necessarily what you need, it's what you like. Consider a $4,500 knife like a custom engraved Holland and Holland. People are out there who'll spend $100,000 on a shotgun, while most are just fine with a Remmington 870.

Emersons are quality knives. Some say they're overpriced compared to comparatble models from other companies like Benchmade or Spyderco, other people swear by the "Wave" opening method. Emerson is perhaps a more "weapon" oriented company than "tool".

I'm not going to answer the "weapons" questions, since I'm not very knowledgable on such things. To me, a knife is a tool. There's plenty of "weapon" knives and users out there, but I'm not one of them, so I'll let someone else anwser.

 

[Bob W]

Some random points I'd like to make:

First I gotta ask, why do you think you need a "weapon" knife? Are you in the military? Self defense? If you carry an aggressive-looking 'tactical' knife and use it on someone, it will be very difficult to claim "self defense" regardless the circumstances.

Second, the $4500 knives at knifeart are exactly that, art. You're paying for exotic materials, knifemaker's name, and added artwork - engraving, etching, filework, etc. Knives in that price range are the exception, even for custom handmade knives. You can buy decent factory knives for as little as $10 (Opinel and OldTimer come to mind) and handmade knives for under $100.

Best Wishes,
Bob

 

[Nano Cacho III]

$10,000,000 for a PICASSO?!?!? It's just a friggin' painting!!!!!

OK, jackassery aside, art takes different forms. A $4,500 knife is more than just a cutting tool. We're talking hundereds of hours of hand-made craftmanship and attention to detail, materials, and artistic realization. I understand if a particular knife isn't worth $4,500 to you, or even $450 (which isn't unreasonable for a custom "tactical" knife). But to somebody it might be, which is what the maker is obviously hoping for. And yes, people do buy knives at these price levels.

To put it in your terms (jackass mode back on), why spend $3,000+ on a Les Baer custom tuned 1911, when a Glock 21 .45 can be had for a mere $500? I mean, the 1911 is almost 100 years old! Should a gun require $2,500 worth of modifications and 500 rounds of break-in to be reliable? Only 7+1 rounds? The G21 holds twice that!

The point is, it isn't necessarily what you need, it's what you like. Consider a $4,500 knife like a custom engraved Holland and Holland. People are out there who'll spend $100,000 on a shotgun, while most are just fine with a Remmington 870.

Emersons are quality knives. Some say they're overpriced compared to comparatble models from other companies like Benchmade or Spyderco, other people swear by the "Wave" opening method. Emerson is perhaps a more "weapon" oriented company than "tool".

I'm not going to answer the "weapons" questions, since I'm not very knowledgable on such things. To me, a knife is a tool. There's plenty of "weapon" knives and users out there, but I'm not one of them, so I'll let someone else anwser.

Dear Mr. Planterz,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry! And may I say Very well said!!!! You put it in terms I can understand!!!! Yes indeed why a Vickers Custom when a Glock will suffice! And I do appreciate the analogy of the Holland and Holland! I owned a Benelli Super 90M3 but an H&H is an H&H!!!!!

Points well taken Sir! Perhaps Knives "were" not my cup of tea. But I do recognize the neccesity of having one and learning to use it well! Thats why I joined this forum to learn about knives and their use, subjects which I know little about.

There is so much to learn!!!! From what seemed to be such a simple subject! Very interesting and very exciting!

Again Sir Thank you for the time and the effort.

Sincerely

Nano

 

[sharpcracker]

I have been around the handmade and custom knife business for most of my adult life and I'll be danged if I can figure out why people will spend so much $$$ on knives. I do know that knifemaking as a career is an iffy proposition and it takes a long time and usually a lot of money to get to the point where your knives can compete with established makers and you can actually make a little money on them. These days the market is fueled largely by collectors who are more interested in perfection of the craft itself than they are in actually using the blades that are produced. So the answer to the first question is what Planterz said. It is a matter of taste and how much disposable income one has.
I would imagine that, given the present population of the world, the percentage of people who have actually killed someone with a 3" or 4" knife is very, very small. I am sure it could be done, with the proper training and knowledge of the human anatomy, I just doubt that any sane man would want to get that close to an armed assailant. I do know from personal experience that a 3" or 4" deep hole in your flesh coupled with the sight of your own blood will cause you to pause and reconsider your options. Perhaps this is what the knife designer had in mind. While your wounded opponent is cosidering whether attacking you at close quarters was really such a good idea you will have the oppurtunity to run away and reload your gun. Personally, for close quarters combat, I prefer the Inter-continental Ballistic Missile with a low yield nuclear warhead. That way you not only eliminate your assailant but any friends, family members or business associates who might feel called upon to enter the fray

 

[Nano Cacho III]

Some random points I'd like to make:

First I gotta ask, why do you think you need a "weapon" knife? Are you in the military? Self defense? If you carry an aggressive-looking 'tactical' knife and use it on someone, it will be very difficult to claim "self defense" regardless the circumstances.

Second, the $4500 knives at knifeart are exactly that, art. You're paying for exotic materials, knifemaker's name, and added artwork - engraving, etching, filework, etc. Knives in that price range are the exception, even for custom handmade knives. You can buy decent factory knives for as little as $10 (Opinel and OldTimer come to mind) and handmade knives for under $100.

Best Wishes,
Bob

Dear Bob,

Thank you for your inputs! I am interested in knives particularly for self defense. A "Back-up, concealled carry" weapon if you will. The "Tactical" looking knives would probably be less offensive as carrying a balisong around these parts. I don't know why but knives scare and confound me!

I am confounded by the fact that A simple little US$1 steak knife could kill you as easily as an expensive custom knife. You can pick one up in the kitchen on the way out! BUT now I see the "ART" of it. Much like the 1911's

Knives scare the hell out of me cause they always seemed like very bloody, violent, messy, painful weapons to me. With a gun - Boom! - Done, Finished End of Story. With a knife theres all that cutting and slashing and stabbing etc. At this point I am actually trying to overcome my disdane for and fear of knives and embrace them as the efficient and neccesssary weapons that they are.

In all honesty though I see and understand, the points already made I have not yet come to appreciate the "ART" of Knives. Perhaps with more knowledge I hope to appreciate them as you guys do, as I do my Colt 1911's.

Again thank you Sir for your much appreciated inputs!

God Bless!

Nano

 

[Nano Cacho III]

I have been around the handmade and custom knife business for most of my adult life and I'll be danged if I can figure out why people will spend so much $$$ on knives. I do know that knifemaking as a career is an iffy proposition and it takes a long time and usually a lot of money to get to the point where your knives can compete with established makers and you can actually make a little money on them. These days the market is fueled largely by collectors who are more interested in perfection of the craft itself than they are in actually using the blades that are produced. So the answer to the first question is what Planterz said. It is a matter of taste and how much disposable income one has.
I would imagine that, given the present population of the world, the percentage of people who have actually killed someone with a 3" or 4" knife is very, very small. I am sure it could be done, with the proper training and knowledge of the human anatomy, I just doubt that any sane man would want to get that close to an armed assailant. I do know from personal experience that a 3" or 4" deep hole in your flesh coupled with the sight of your own blood will cause you to pause and reconsider your options. Perhaps this is what the knife designer had in mind. While your wounded opponent is cosidering whether attacking you at close quarters was really such a good idea you will have the oppurtunity to run away and reload your gun. Personally, for close quarters combat, I prefer the Inter-continental Ballistic Missile with a low yield nuclear warhead. That way you not only eliminate your assailant but any friends, family members or business associates who might feel called upon to enter the fray

Hello Mr. Sharpcracker!!!!

It seems we have joined this forum on the same day and started our posts on the same thread!!!!! Ha Ha Hello Classmate!!!!!

You have been in the knife business for most of your adult life very interesting!!! As Very well put by Mr Planterz and Bob, I am begining to understand the Tastes side of the ART of knives. Mr bro is a Glock fanatic and can't understand why anyone would carry much less use a Colt 1911. And The same for me I can't understand how anyone would want to own such an ugly looking plastic gun - though admittedly very tough and efficient! BUT both of us do love the Holland & Holland Rifles and Shotguns! Put this way I can understand why people like and purchase custom knives.

I still have to understand why the "Tactical" knives are 3"-4" inches. They even have these short claw-like knives!!!! Looks extremely painful, bloody and messy!!!!! I think your right about the training and human anatony thing! But as to the armed assailant, it's not why you'd want to get close to one, but what do you do when one closes in on you!!!! From what I've read so far It seems to me that most people look at knives as tools, works of art, and collectors pieces. Not so with Colt 1911s and guns in general, they may be works of art, and collectors pieces but first and foremost they are weapons.

Thank you for the inputs and am looking forward to learning from your experiences with knives classmate!!!

God Bless

Nano

 

[bquinlan]

I still have to understand why the "Tactical" knives are 3"-4" inches. They even have these short claw-like knives!!!! Looks extremely painful, bloody and messy!!!!!

Painful, bloody, and messy sums it up pretty well. Knives are never going to be a sane person's first choice of weapon. ...which does not exclude everyone here, of course.

In the real world almost any weapon, from firearm to club, is superior to a knife because of the knife's limited reach. However, many people cannot legally carry a firearm and impact weapons require size and mass to be effective, which makes them awkward to carry. Knives can be very small and light relative to their potential effectiveness. Having any weapon is a big improvement over having none if you end up fighting for your life. Likewise, even if you have a better primary weapon, it's always good to have a backup, and knives fit that role well.

As far as the biomechanics of stopping someone with a 3" blade, you're right to be skeptical. The percentage shot with a firearm is always center-of-mass. That is far from the most vulnerable spot on the human body, but a firearm generates enough force, and enough penetration, to do the job anyway, at least most of the time.

With a knife your objectives have to be more modest. Even a 1" blade can kill quickly, but only against a very few targets, none of which are going to be easy to reach. On the other hand, a small blade can cut tendons and muscles that will impair, if not incapacitate. It can inflict pain and shock that may force an opponent to let go or back off. If you can buy yourself enough room to disengage (i.e. run away) you can consider that a win.

I think the greatest virtue of knives as weapons is that they aren't just weapons. Almost any knife makes a very useful tool to have with you under all kinds of circumstances. And, in the the final extreme, you can use it to defend yourself as well.

--Bob Q

 

[Watchful]

As far as the biomechanics of stopping someone with a 3" blade, you're right to be skeptical. The percentage shot with a firearm is always center-of-mass. That is far from the most vulnerable spot on the human body, but a firearm generates enough force, and enough penetration, to do the job anyway, at least most of the time.

With a knife your objectives have to be more modest. Even a 1" blade can kill quickly, but only against a very few targets, none of which are going to be easy to reach. On the other hand, a small blade can cut tendons and muscles that will impair, if not incapacitate. It can inflict pain and shock that may force an opponent to let go or back off. If you can buy yourself enough room to disengage (i.e. run away) you can consider that a win.

Bob Q is correct: a 1" blade can kill if put into the carotids or punctures the diaphragm or any number of obvious targets. But a 1" blade can do serious damage *anywhere* there is soft tissue by causing immediate blood-loss shock. Further, bullets do their damage very differently from knives. The center of mass shot Bob Q describes is designed to promote hydrostatic shock: even if you don't hit a specific target in the torso, the resulting shock of impact can kill. Certainly we're all aware that a tiny piece of lead moving through the torso creates a tremendous amount of damage. Hence, 10"-12" of depth is essential to create maximum damage. A knife, on the other hand, tears and gashes, slices and dices. Many bullet wounds cauterize themselves and have little blood loss; a knife stab almost always produces a lot of blood loss and shock, and you can do damage with less. Consider also that the amound of metal entering the body from a bullet is usually less than the amount of metal in a knife blade... even a 1" blade! All weapons are different.

Welcome to the forums...there isn't anything quite like this one!

 

[knife saber]

Just a quick question, as someone who is acquainted with physics but not ballistics in particular - 10" - 12" of depth in what medium? In the case of a bullet entering on a vector perpendicular to the torso, there generally isn't (at least in my experience of human beings) 10 - 12 inches of depth to begin with. I'm no lightweight, and I'm still only 9 inches deep in the chest area. What am I missing?

 

[Watchful]

Usually these are based on ballistics gel depths. In many tests, 10" - 12" of ballistic gel equates to total penetration of the human torso (that is, exit wound).

However, the depth you penetrate gel is based very much on how the gel is formulated. Whatever formula you use, the real trick is keeping it consistent from test to test.

In many cases, the test is to see how much energy the bullet loses after impact: a .22 LR can often travel a couple of *feet* through gel!

You can make your own ballistics gel...it costs a fortune in Jell-O, takes a long time to make and totally overtakes your refrigerator, and it doesn't keep long...but a lot shooters rely on the 3/4" plywood rule: if the bullet punches through a sheet of that, you've gone through a human torso. I have no clue if that's been verified scientifically (it should be an easy energy equation), but it seems right.

 

[allyourblood]

Just a quick question, as someone who is acquainted with physics but not ballistics in particular - 10" - 12" of depth in what medium? In the case of a bullet entering on a vector perpendicular to the torso, there generally isn't (at least in my experience of human beings) 10 - 12 inches of depth to begin with. I'm no lightweight, and I'm still only 9 inches deep in the chest area. What am I missing?

maybe you're supposed to shoot them from in the top of the head, down.

ahhh... i kill me. (but not with a gun)

abe m.

 

[kamkazmoto]

Welcome to Bladeforums Nano Cacho III I hope that the answers so far have been helpful and maybe I can add something to them. In the US most of us have a 4" limit on the blade length that we can legally carry and I find that 3" is about all that I can use without upsetting the sheeple (non-knife carrying sheep people) around me. There are some states that allow people to carry a folder with a longer blade; Texas has a 5.5" legal limit and California has no limit on folder blade length as long as it is concealed so most manufacturers try to stay within those guidelines. Hope this helps.

 

[twisted bits]

Just a quick question, as someone who is acquainted with physics but not ballistics in particular - 10" - 12" of depth in what medium? In the case of a bullet entering on a vector perpendicular to the torso, there generally isn't (at least in my experience of human beings) 10 - 12 inches of depth to begin with. I'm no lightweight, and I'm still only 9 inches deep in the chest area. What am I missing?

Bigger meals.

NC-III Guns can be just as messy as knives, don't always make nice pretty thru-and-thru holes like 9's, .45's as I'm sure you know can really make quite a mess.
Like knives like little guns can do a lot of damage - head shot with .22 goes in, rattles around the skull really scrambles the brains up. Small knife in mid chest can hit the heart or a simple slice to the jugular. Like the cliche - it's not the size of the tool but how it is used.

 

[bishop85gt]

Dear Bob,

Thank you for your inputs! I am interested in knives particularly for self defense. A "Back-up, concealled carry" weapon if you will. The "Tactical" looking knives would probably be less offensive as carrying a balisong around these parts. I don't know why but knives scare and confound me!

I am confounded by the fact that A simple little US$1 steak knife could kill you as easily as an expensive custom knife. You can pick one up in the kitchen on the way out! BUT now I see the "ART" of it. Much like the 1911's

Knives scare the hell out of me cause they always seemed like very bloody, violent, messy, painful weapons to me. With a gun - Boom! - Done, Finished End of Story. With a knife theres all that cutting and slashing and stabbing etc. At this point I am actually trying to overcome my disdane for and fear of knives and embrace them as the efficient and neccesssary weapons that they are.

In all honesty though I see and understand, the points already made I have not yet come to appreciate the "ART" of Knives. Perhaps with more knowledge I hope to appreciate them as you guys do, as I do my Colt 1911's.

Again thank you Sir for your much appreciated inputs!

God Bless!

Nano

Not really. It can be explained in a simple way. A knife is an extention of the body. A gun is like ma bell, reach out and touch someone!! Stabbing at people with a three inch blade I agree it is insane. Slice!! When you cut someone you cause more shock to the body than if you stab so whoever is attacking you will be willing to stop his attack quicker. In a knife fight most of the time someone is going to the hospital and the other is on the way to the mourge. Bloody, Messy and very painful!! With this said A knife can be a deterante to a nasty man trying to take your wallet or it can be the only thing between you and a hospital stay or even worse a dirt nap!!

Did that help or confuse you more? (and no I do not mean by my spelling!!)

 

[bama_lou]

Kumusta, pare.

One question:
Can you do something to a piece of bread and some cheese with your Colt 1911? I can with my knife.
Regarding the "stabbing" and such, I don't think that you need to penetrate in order to kill. Some people (except those high on PCP and such) can be horrified by the sight of blood from a slash that's deep enough.

 

[Mongo]

Hi Nano, welcome to Bladeforums. I did the opposite... I started out here, and branched out to 1911forums. Good to see you here also. To me, I rarely see the knife as a weapon, it is a tool. A tool that could perhaps serve as a weapon, but I'd be grabbing most anything else first. I too have had my jaw drop when I've seen the price of some knives. But, they are functional pieces of art. They in theory can be used as intended, but most are put away as safe queens/collector pieces. I have a few knives that I would consider expensive, but still have carried and/or used them. My first "expensive" knife I bought gets carried and/or used almost every day. The only one I ever bought that I could not use because it was too perfect, I sold. Bought a dog with the money.... right now, I miss the knife! He better shape up soon!
Gimme a holler some time, I'd be happy to talk knives with you. I'm a Colt guy too... recently bought my first 1911, a Colt MKIV enhanced govt.

 

[Will P.]

Well, when you are talking about caliber of bullets you also have to consider velocity. Handguns typically use larger bullets to make up for lower muzzle velocity. The use of .22's to rattle around in the skull is a common myth. I'm not saying a low velocity .22 might not do that, but the reason .22's are used (and .223's in our assault rifles) is that they are easy to fire due to minimal recoil, especially in rapid, aimed shots - ideal for mid to close range engagements.

Ensanguination - blood loss - is generally not acceptable as a means to kill someone with a gun. Soldiers are concerned with immediate lethality above all else. This makes shot placement very important - the chest and head are crucial targets.

A knife penetrates soft tissue and most often kills by ensanguination. The neck, subclavian, heart, and lungs are all vunerable to a 4" knife. Even more easily, the abdomen can be opened up, destrying crucial muscles and organs. The knife creates massive trauma and abuse to the soft flesh. It can do so in places a bullet might very well overpenetrate and not expend most of its energy, leading to slow death by ensanguination. A knife, unlike a club, is a lethal weapon that relies heavily on surprise and outright aggression.

I have never messed someone up with a knife or shot someone, but I've done my best to come to a hypothetical understanding of these weapons. A knife is a weapon and a tool, but 99.9% of a knife's use is as a tool.

 

[runT1ME]

Nano, you should come bring some of your questions to the Practical Tactical forum. You'd probably get some great answers there in regards to defending oneself with a knife.

No, a knife isn't easy to use as a weapon, but I believe it can be extremely effective if you train with it.

I mean, personally, I think shooting a moving target from 15' away in a stressful situation seems as hard as hitting a vital artery from 2' away.

I guess it depends on what you spend your time doing.

Hopefully you'll never have to use a knife for self defense, but if you do, you'll want one that has a good grip, and a blade that won't break (even if its only 1 in a 100 stabs that break it, you don't want to risk it ).

From what I understand, everything else is prefrence. There are different schools of thought in regards to slashing vs. stabbing, like I said, come over to the Practical Tacticul foru, and people much more knowledgable then me can answer you.

 

[twisted bits]

Ensanguination - blood loss - is generally not acceptable as a means to kill someone with a gun. Soldiers are concerned with immediate lethality above all else. This makes shot placement very important - the chest and head are crucial targets.

OK...however, during the Boer War in S. Africa, 1899-1901 +-, the British were being driven back quite successfully by the Boers (as well as poor planning, lack of knowledge of the terrain, etc). Anyway, it was found by the Boers to be more effective to slow down the Brits by wounding them and not killing them. By wounding the British soldiers, it takes 2 others out of action as they were used to carry each of the wounded off the battlefield; the dead just get left behind. Now I'm getting a bit OT here.

Anyway my point was that both methods can be just as messy, or alternately, clean, depending upon how used. A knife does not necessarily mean very messy, but I'll give you that more often that not it is.