Early lockup???

[mick richard]

My Xm-18 is early lockup. ~ 10-15%. Is this normal?
And what is pros and cos of early lockup?
Thanks!

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[N Gremory]

I'm definitely not an expert on lockup, but I'll gladly give my opinion and thoughts on this.
I've never had a Hinderer, so I cannot tell you if it's normal or not.

As far as the pros and cons of early lockup..
If the lock-bar/liner is susceptible to fairly easy wear, early lockup would give you a lock that lasts a longer amount of time before becoming 100% and unreliable.
Unfortunately, early lock-up also means that you'll have a weaker lock, given that it's only being locked open with a tiny bit of contact, and the bar could quite easily move off of the blade.

As far as well-made titanium frame-locks go, having lockup 40-85% seems to be pretty common, brand new, and they tend to stay at around the same percentage over years of normal use.

 

[AntDog]

cons - it might fold up on you under high torque, maybe. Probably not. I really wouldn't worry about it if the knife feels solid when locked open.

pros - score! It's much better to have an early lockup than a late one. Early lockup usually means the knife is solid, and quality built. It also means the lock can account for lots of wear. I think you got one hell of a knife there pal.

 

[AntDog]

I'm definitely not an expert on lockup, but I'll gladly give my opinion and thoughts on this.
I've never had a Hinderer, so I cannot tell you if it's normal or not.

As far as the pros and cons of early lockup..
If the lock-bar/liner is susceptible to fairly easy wear, early lockup would give you a lock that lasts a longer amount of time before becoming 100% and unreliable.
Unfortunately, early lock-up also means that you'll have a weaker lock, given that it's only being locked open with a tiny bit of contact, and the bar could quite easily move off of the blade.

As far as well-made titanium frame-locks go, having lockup 40-85% seems to be pretty common, brand new, and they tend to stay at around the same percentage over years of normal use.

nope.

 

[N Gremory]

cons - it might fold up on you under high torque, maybe. Probably not. I really wouldn't worry about it if the knife feels solid when locked open.

pros - score! It's much better to have an early lockup than a late one. Early lockup usually means the knife is solid, and quality built. It also means the lock can account for lots of wear. I think you got one hell of a knife there pal.

I suppose that I didn't word my thoughts all too well. This is what I meant.

 

[extrastout]

as long as your gripping the knife when using it, there should be no worries (it won't fail without the grip, but don't take my word for it) . Once you use/break in the knife it will settle in a little more. Early lockup is a good thing.....at least with a Hinderer, you will now have a lifetime of no worries lockup that will only get better with time and use. BTW good call posting this in the general discussion, because this thread would be locked out at the Hinderer's front porch as soon as you knocked at the door (for a tough, gritty, can handle anything knife, there is a lot of sensitive and easily hurt feelings over there...):grumpy:

 

[AntDog]

I suppose that I didn't word my thoughts all too well. This is what I meant.

I figured! I just didn't want the guy thinking his lock was faulty just because it's early. It shouldn't fold up unless he puts a HELL of a lot of force on it in the wrong direction.

 

[N Gremory]

I figured! I just didn't want the guy thinking his lock was faulty just because it's early. It shouldn't fold up unless he puts a HELL of a lot of force on it in the wrong direction.

Heheh. No kidding! I can't imagine what situation you would be in that would require you to use the knife in a way that would do that.

Once you use/break in the knife it will settle in a little more.

Great point to add!

 

[AntDog]

No doubt. I treat most of my locking folders like slipjoints. You have to just assume the things will fold up on you at any minute. They probably won't, but what if they do? It only takes one phuckup and you're short a finger or two.

 

[G. Scott H.]

Looks just about perfect to me for a new frame lock. As was said, it should settle in a bit with a little use. I'd much rather have it that way than have the lock bar go halfway across right out of the box. :thumbup:

 

[Ajack60]

I've got 4 and they all have early lock up like yours. Nothing to worry about. They are well built knives. Don't have a false sense of security regarding early/late lock up. In the right situation any knife has the potential for failure. As long as the knife is respected for the design and use it will not fail you. It's when folks think they have the best thing since sliced bread in a knife that they lose sight of the potential danger of using a knife. Always have a good grip and don't be stupid with your knife, you'll be good with it regardless of all the different opinions. Go look at the many Utube videos about lock up

 

[mjolnir74]

That is earlier than the XM18 I had. My lock up never changed. It's carbidized. I doubt you'll have problems, but personally I like it to hit at 40-50%.

 

[Twindog]

I would not want a frame lock with such tenuous contact. Shock vibrations or torque from twisting the knife could make it fail -- not that it will, but the possibility is enhanced. The angles on the lock bar and tang are what give the lock security. With such a small contact area, those angles don't have a chance to do their stuff. Even with more engaged lock, frame locks can open. I had a ZT 0560 fold on me when I was trimming off excess foam insulation. I was twisting the knife to free the insulation, and my fingers pulled the lock open. This was light-duty use, and the twisting action was not severe at all.

I like to see frame locks where the lock bar makes full contact with the tang.

 

[pnsxyr]

I highly doubt you would, but let me first say this (which many others have said)...do NOT modify the locking mechanism to get a later lock up regardless of what anyone says elsewhere. In addition to voiding the warranty, that often will compromise the integrity of the frame lock (while you will not see this advice on a knife forum, on general forums with knife sections you sometimes see people with a Doctorate in 'Dremeling' telling people to more or less pee on the electric fence).



My XM did not lock up quite that early (yours appears to be a different generation than mine), but mine was used many a time and in practice the frame lock really is versatile in this department by design (one of the reasons it was made...it can account in a fashion a liner lock generally cannot and this design allows accounting for normal wear without developing blade play or the dreaded bow-lock), and stories about good frame locks with early lock up disengaging on their own are very, very, very rare (most of which are user-induced). I highly doubt this is a functional issue and doubt even less that it is a longevity issue, but the best way to verify is contacting Rick Hinderer directly as they are going to give you the best information on factory spec. Contact Rob. Even if it is not functional and you are absolutely unhappy with it, I am sure they will work with you as the Hinderer family is good peoples.

With Chris Reeves, there is some variation within models and some notable differences in the lockup/locking style between the Seb 21, Seb 25, and Umnumzaan. The problems with this variation in terms of functional capacity were perceived (not actual whatsoever)...some people on other forums worried about this so much they started modifying the knives...and managed to ruin what is quite possibly the most difficult knife & locking mechanism to destroy. When a guy I knew showed me what he "fixed" with his Umnumzaan, I damn near had a myocardial infarction...

Just to be positive, you may want to detail strip it, ensure the washers, pivot, and screws are in good shape, and lubricate and reassemble to factory spec. If a frame lock is not reassembled correctly after cleaning, this can affect the lock up. (Note that even when this happens, the integrity of the lock is rarely compromised unless someone made a huuuuuge error.)





edit: this should really be in the Hinderer section so someone at Hinderer can comment directly

 

[extrastout]

the more shock or vibration with the framelock, the more the lock bar travels in :thumbup:, and during real hard use will even be tough to disengage when trying to fold the blade in.....early lockup is no problem with the Hinderer frame lock.

 

[bigmark408]

Folks seem to think its a good thing these days.

Personally it's not acceptable.

I just sent a custom ??? I received today right back to the maker and tore him up on the phone for letting it leave his shop.

Mastering engagement on a frame lock is something few have mastered.

 

[ToddM]

Folks seem to think its a good thing these days.

Personally it's not acceptable.

I just sent a bada$$ custom I received today right back to the maker and tore him up on the phone for letting it leave his shop.

Mastering engagement on a frame lock is something few have mastered.

Well said! IMO there's no good reason for a lockup that early and it would not be acceptable. I've had user knives for years that started around 50% where the lock never even came close to 100% long before the days of steel inserts and carbidizing lock faces. The fear of lock bars wearing to 100% is hugely overblown. If you have a 50% lockup that goes to 100% even over a few years of use there was something wrong to start with on the knife lock.

It's probably like 1911s with slides so tight they barely function that are so popular now ....customers wanted it so makers responded even though slide tightness has almost nothing to do with accuracy but hurts reliability significantly in adverse conditions.

 

[pnsxyr]

Well said! IMO there's no good reason for a lockup that early and it would not be acceptable. I've had user knives for years that started around 50% where the lock never even came close to 100% long before the days of steel inserts and carbidizing lock faces. The fear of lock bars wearing to 100% is hugely overblown. If you have a 50% lockup that goes to 100% even over a few years of use there was something wrong to start with on the knife lock.

It's probably like 1911s with slides so tight they barely function that are so popular now ....customers wanted it so makers responded even though slide tightness has almost nothing to do with accuracy but hurts reliability significantly in adverse conditions.

I agree, given titanium doesn't wear away like ecofoam, but also think that the fear of lock bars locking up too early has also seen fears not proportional to the actual problem. Actual functional issues with a frame lock that locks up a little early or a little late is a super small minority with the perception that it is a functional issue. While I realize some people do not like a late lockup or an early lockup, I've never had any sort of functional issue with either-or.

Rick Hinderer would be able to say if this lockup is acceptable for factory specification or not.

 

[CyberShot]

My 3.5 XM locks at about 40%. It's solid.

 

[kokkionglow]

I wouldn't be comfortable with a lockup that early.. more than 35% or more than 1.2mm should be the minimum, but percentage also depends on the thickness.. if your XM-18 is a 3" or 3.5" blade, its lockside thickness should be 0.125" (3.2mm) or 0.165" (4.2mm) respectively.
Hence at 35% it makes out to be 1.1mm (prefer slightly more at 1.2mm though) or 1.5mm

in reality, lockup does not wear so much during its lifetime..so a 50% lockup is perfectly alright.