Early warning signs of knife purchasing trouble

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Considering the fact that there will always be knifemakers who don't fulfill promises and knife collectors/dealers who will try to scam honest knife knuts, I got to thinking about the early warning signs. It seems that there are sometimes early indications that a deal is going to go bad. If we can identify these early warning signs, perhaps we can avoid losing money as often. Keep in mind that if a warning sign occurs, it doesn't mean the deal will go bad, but it should at least raise a red flag.


Here are the ones I've noticed over the years. Feel free to add your own.
  • Very poor communication (particularly if he's posting elsewhere or responding to others).
  • Request to prepay for knives on order from a knifemaker.
  • If they have a bad reputation here in GB&U.
  • Knifemakers who have so many bad personal events happen in a row that it simply defies logic (e.g., my shop burned down and then my wife divorced me and then I got cancer and then a meteor struck me and then...). There obviously are the occasions where a string of these bad luck events can happen to someone, but it should at least make you think twice. Even if they are true, you can be sure that you won't be getting that knife for a VERY LONG time.
Others?

- Mark
 
Good stuff man,,its good to know these type of signs because they go for buying and trading with the occasional sketchy member here too.
Communication is #1 in any deal I think,,when that breaks, something is up.
 
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The last item- the hyped up the roof has just fallen in on me scenario is defo suspicious.

Sometimes the birth of a child can be factored in as an excuse too, be OK if the maker were female, but when the giving birth seems to take weeks......

"The knife has been ready for weeks but a range of health-problems (drinking??) means I just can't get to the post-office and I don't trust anybody else and I must do this one myself, point of honour." Right.
 
I feel the poor communication issue you spoke of is a great one.

Everyone has issues in life (of the normal kind) but there is never any reason really good enough to not reply to any form of communication on the buyers behalf, it takes nothing at all to send a fast email to stay in touch.

Communication is key in business as well as everywhere in life but it's a big thing when it comes to business.
 
Unless the knife I order requires super special materials, I steer clear of makers that need me to pre-pay so that he/she can buy the materials necessary to make my knife.

Pre-pays and down payments are the biggest red flag for me...........................
 
I don't make any down payments. Putting yourself in debt is NEVER a good idea, for a non necessity, that's just a rule I live by. As much as we'd like to think they are, our knives are not necessities, and if a knifemaker wants me to put a deposit down, I usually don't continue to do business and I'll just wait for them to complete their stuff unless they're a well established name.
 
I made a down payment on " a run" once and it took so long for the process to run it's course....I was so pissed off by the time I got the blade that I couldn't wait to get rid of it.
Never again.
 
I am editing my post because the maker I was having issues with ended addressing the problem like a man.

Back to the original question. I would say that the early warning signs of trouble with regards to a custom order are a maker that demands payment in full and a sudden deterioration in the maker's communicating skills after he gets that payment. Happened to me once with a very well-known maker, he was extremely helpful when I was deciding what model to get, but once I paid he really took me for a ride. The actual wait was 4 times longer than what he had promised, and his excuses were really pathetic (snowstorms, a flood, broken truck...).
 
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While I agree that down payments to an unknown maker/seller are generally a bad thing, I have no issues paying up front with someone well-known and respected.

I can also understand the point of view of the well-known maker that would prefer payment before starting in on the work. I have done well over 100 flashlight mods for people, and I had to start asking for payment up front because too many people were trying to stiff me after the work was done. They'd pretend that they had no idea what I was talking about, or say that they already sent payment, just to get out of paying. My turning point was getting shafted on a $300 custom job for someone overseas.

That said, it goes both ways. If I'm doing business with someone generally known as a well respected individual, I have no problem waiting for payment until well after they've received their finished light.
 
Sorry to disagree but unless the maker is doing something special there is no reason to pay him/her one red cent until he/she advises the item is finished and ready to ship.

Usually there is a waiting list (at least for the good makers) and there is always someone ready to step up and buy the item (again, as long as it is not a special order) if the one who ordered it flakes.

And if a maker needs me to prepay to buy the materials reqiuired to make my knife then he/she has a money-flow issue and that's a huge red flag for me.
 
Sorry to disagree but unless the maker is doing something special there is no reason to pay him/her one red cent until he/she advises the item is finished and ready to ship.

Usually there is a waiting list (at least for the good makers) and there is always someone ready to step up and buy the item (again, as long as it is not a special order) if the one who ordered it flakes.

And if a maker needs me to prepay to buy the materials reqiuired to make my knife then he/she has a money-flow issue and that's a huge red flag for me.
I suppose that since pretty much all of what I do is custom one-off modification, I would have to agree with you. If I was simply making/buying something and then selling it, I'd never think of charging prior to performing the work.

I'm going to have to disagree with the prepay for materials though, in the case that the materials are fairly expensive. It may not be that the maker cannot purchase them, but that they'd rather not be stuck with that much investment in the case that the buyer backs out. (assuming that the quality of the work was not an issue)
 
how about some on-line dealer red flags:

-won't answer pm's, emails, or even the phone.
-don't update inventory. you probably didn't find some super secret hidden window on their site with that impossible to find model. if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
-can't personally inspect the knife. that means it may be getting drop shipped from somewhere else. in this case, it may be very difficult to return a defective item.
 
One of the craziest things to ever happen to me was the seller told me
that he along with members of his family had been in a very bad traffic
accident that sent them all to the hospital for an extended stay.
He goes on to say that he broke his ribs along with puncturing a lung
and had a broken arm to boot. I would hate to hear about the rest of the
family ( which I never did ) and how bad they were hurt.
I thought he was telling the truth, and let it lay for months.
Come to find out he was never in a wreck and he just flat
lied and stole my money. I did receive some compensation
for the cash that was paid, but not all of it. This guy was
nothing more than a freakin scam artist that knew how to
play the game. He has hauled tail and is back in another
country for now, but I am keeping my eyes peeled for him.
 
As a seller for 30 years here are some red flags when dealing with customers.

A customer wants a discount for no other reason then they are having money problems. (asking the seller to work for less so they can live a little better). Usually followed by saying they want the best. (wanting champagne on a beer budget)

A customer gives a long list of requirements to meet their needs – like more pictures, drawings, quotes for personal service, that may occupy half an hour of the sellers time- for free-without also stating they understand personal service will cost more, or even that they are an interested buyer.

Example I get kids doing book reports for school and need information. Competitors who want to compare prices, the government trying to put out bait for a sting, people who are bored who just want to chat . As a customer- do not look like these sorts, or say so up front.

A customer who acts like they are at the front of the line. In a physical store we wait in line till it is our turn. On the internet I quickly discovered as a seller I do not have to answer my mail in the order it is received. I can scan fast and look for friends, regular customers. I can scan the mail and decide who is at the front and who is at the back of the line. As a customer you can figure out if you think about it, how to get to the front of the line as a good customer.

Many issues are new to the internet. In the old days we went to a physical store and could make a decision about what sort of place this is. On the net someone in theory could be living on a street bench running a store from a library showing pictures of anything. Many of us for example would not want to buy a diamond from a guy in a back alley opening his coat and whispering “Wanna buy a watch?” Yet such a person can create a great web site for $100.

A local guy where I live had a web site selling airplanes. He has no airplane nor place to keep one. If you contact him and inquire he goes and buys an airplane from the same place you can buy one. He has pictures showing airplanes behind a fence. It’s just a picture. Likewise customers are capable of posing as being someone they are not.

Had a sort of friend once. Watched him get on line and go to his favorite web site looking at 500 grand race boats. Asking for literature, and discussing on line with a dealer all the specifications. The dear thought he had a customer. My friend was on welfare, no job, no place to stay, and could barely afford a meal. He saw nothing wrong with this. As a seller this was an important lesson for me. I need to spot this type if I hope to stray in business and keep my prices reasonable.

Thus- look for indications both seller and buyer sing from the same sheet of music. Example: on my selling web site I define terms like ‘free’ and ‘prompt reply’, raw, finished, good customer, for customers who are suspicious and had hard times in the past. Maybe the reason is right there in back and white – saving us both a lot of time and aggravation.

Buyers can look for references, satisfied customers, pictures proving the seller makes this stuff, like pictures of him in the shop on the web site making stuff. But what can the seller do to check out the customer? In a physical store I might see how you dress. In a glance decide if you are wacked out on drugs, walk the walk you talk. It’s harder for the seller to have much information on the buyer.

Mistakes get made on the internet. I get people in my web store who think they are in McDonalds, want it supersized for another dollar, cheap fast the way they want it, forgetting that Ronald Mc might not be able to speak English and that’s why he smiles – and you have to point.

But I also get customers who think they are in tiffanies and wait to be seated, asking for a menu, not realizing they are at a one man show doing the selling- making buying the advertizing the web site the picture taking and – well personal service means a person and we need to get along with this person. It’s one reason personal service was given up and everyone was created equal with impersonal service.
 
Buyers can look for references, satisfied customers, pictures proving the seller makes this stuff, like pictures of him in the shop on the web site making stuff. But what can the seller do to check out the customer? In a physical store I might see how you dress. In a glance decide if you are wacked out on drugs, walk the walk you talk. It’s harder for the seller to have much information on the buyer.

How about checking someone's feedback as a buyer on ebay?
 
Here's my 2c.
Keep an eye on the prices, we all love a bargain but if you're buying an expensive knife for a dream price, you're probably getting stiffed.
as a side note.. personally I never buy anything on credit, if you are going into debt then you are addicted to what you're buying and you need to stop buying unessentials.
 
not just knives , guns too. Recently had a gunsmith put it too mee badd ... 1100 rifle with glue / sawdust patched stock ...
he had all kinds of DELAY excuses for 1 1/2 years ... to the point I no longer cared his reason.
I like how you will talk about a DEAL and get emails back within minutes or hours , but have a problem or want to know where it is ...
and have it take days or WEEKS to get a reply.
LOVE THIS THREAD
 
I would say that the early warning signs of trouble with regards to a custom order are a maker that demands payment in full and a sudden deterioration in the maker's communicating skills after he gets that payment. Happened to me once with a very well-known maker, he was extremely helpful when I was deciding what model to get, but once I paid he really took me for a ride. The actual wait was 4 times longer than what he had promised, and his excuses were really pathetic .

This almost exact circumstance happened to me with a well known maker here on BF.
Promises were made and great communication occured until he had my cash.
I was promised a knife in short order and told that he had already forged a blade that would suit the order perfectly. .........but over a year later I was still waiting with one lame excuse after another. The kicker was when I saw him post almost my exact order up on the "For Sale" Forum.
Seems he made my knife, needed cash and sold it.
It took me a few more months to get a refund out of him.

It was a moral dilemma for me as to wether to out him or not in GBU.
Ultimately I never revealed who it was because I don't want to take the food out of his family's mouth. I don't believe he is a thief.......just a bad businessman who was desperate

Beware paying up-front for custom orders.
Now the best I will do is a small deposit to secure my space in line. (Max 10% of the price of the knife)
I am happy to pay for special materials like Damascus but most reputable makers will not even ask you.
 
why dont you people just use a credit card?? that way if the person tries to rip you off you just call your cc and do a charge back to get your money back.
 
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