Edge hardness testing

Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
1,006
Hello, I would like some opinions on an edge test method that I've been conducting on my blades to test my heat treating with. Basically, after hardening and tempering and putting an edge on my blade, I whack the edge directly into the sharpened edge of another blade of "commercial grade" such as a Buck knife. My thinking is whichever one sustained the more damage in the process is probably the one with either poorer quality steel or poorer quality heat treatment. I expect my blades to hold up their edge at least equal, if not better than a decent quality "commercial" grade knife. Kinda of a back-yard approach for lack of a Rockwell Hardness tester. Tell me if you think this is "whacky" or if it holds any merit whatsoever. Thanks, your criticism is appreciated. Randy.
 
Um i don't think that will tell you a lot if anything usefull. you have to remember that edge geometry plays a huge role in what a knife can take. if your edge is thinner then the other blades but there the same hardness and material then the thicker edge is going to have more steel behind its cutting edge to support the edge. there is other ways to test if your knives are good
 
Generally speaking, I have found this sort of testing to be less informative than we might otherwise wish. The reason for this is the fact that your knife and the "commercial grade" knife don't necessarily have the same edge geometry. If your knife is ground with a thicker, more obtuse angle, or is convex ground, it will have better edge support, which means the edge will be stronger, even if the steel is identical in compostiion and heat treat. That stronger edge will hold up MUCH better to this sort of abuse, even if it won't necessarily cut any better.

Interestingly enough, this sort of test is sometimes used as a parlor trick for sword shaped object makers to prove how superior their sharpened crowbars are.

If you ground both edges identically before starting the test, and put both knives in a vise to squeeze the edges on, instead of whacking them together, you may come up with some useful conclusions, but this sort of abuse should be done only with a sacrificial test peice. Even still, I can't say I'd reccomend it, as it would still have limited utility.

Personally, for testing so far, I like to cut stuff. I'll take a knife and whittle some hardwood. Then I'll chop some hardwood cross grain. I'll take it into the kitchen and make a stir fry or fried rice, or something else that requires a lot of cutting.

If I like the way the knife cuts, it's a cutter. If not, then something is wrong. That something might be edge geometry, or it might be heat treat, etc. Try to do everything the same every time, then test small changes one at a time, so you can isolate the difference one change makes.

Also, examine your edges when they get dull. Are the edges rolling over? Are they chipping out? examining the mode of failure will give you some valuable information on how to fix that failure.
 
R.C.Reichert, if you are to test the edge as is,
which means not a test for steel or heat treatment
but a test for the shaped edge itself,
it could be informative.

After all, we do not use steel, we use the edge on it.
That is why I think your kind of testing may be informative.
Just my opinion.
 
Depends on your edge geometry. If the blade is a fine vegetable knife, a straight razor, or a thin skinning knife, it won't matter how hard it is, the edge is going to fail if wacked into a walmart KSO. And that won't mean your HT is wrong.

Alternatively, a fairly soft hatchet will still fair well. So a thick Scandi ground blade will probably "pass" regardless. One of my first knives, forged probably fifteen years ago, passed the nail cutting "test". Looking at it again many years later I realized I hadn't properly hardened it at all, it just had a really thick edge.

If the two blades are similar with a similar edge thickness, your test will tell you which one is harder, which could be good to know. I used to do a similar test before I had confidence in my HT procedures and use of an RC tester. But it is only telling you something if both blades have similar edge geometry.
 
To put it into a different perspective.....
Take a 2X4. Hit a pane of glass as hard as you can,edge on. Which breaks......Result - Wood is sharper and harder than glass.

Your test is a specious argument, and all deference to fujita, provides no information about the HT of steel quality.

Cutting rope, chopping 2X4s in half, brass rod test, cutting cardboard,etc. ......all those will tell you about the edge geometry and provide some insight about the HT and steel choice.

The best tests will be tailored to the purpose the blade is designed to perform. For a fillet knife (slicer), cut 50 times through cardboard. For a camp knife (chopper), chop through a 2X4 ten times, etc. After each test cycle, examine the edge for chips, bends ,and edge retention.

So, if you are making a crash axe, and want to know how well it will hold up in chopping into a wrecked car....your test is excellent (otherwise ,it doesn't reveal much)

Stacy
 
The best tests keep variables to an absolute minimum and measure a specific property in a solid quantifiable (thus comparable) way. First determine what is that you wish to test for and then go from there, however you need to be specific in this in order to make any progress. Your test if improved to remove variables would not be a measure of hardness but more a measure of impact toughness, which I personally like to test for in knives. However countless variables make measuring impact toughness this way almost impossible. Among the many variables already pointed out, you also have angle of impact on a non-symmetrical sample to deal with.

Although this test is not too much different than the test I often used on finished knives of impacting the edge with other metal objects at varying angles in order to test overall edge strength and toughness. I never use this test as any sort of measurable statement on specific properties but it does make me feel better about my edge geometry in relation to that specific heat treatment before putting it into service. All the specific properties I care about are measured earlier in the process with much more exact tests, i.e. Rockwell “C” for penetrative hardness, files for scratch hardness, Charpy v-notch for impact toughness followed by end grain examination etc…

I do very much believe in more general testing of the finished knife, I am however very much against the P.R. prostituting that occurs when these very vague and non specific tests are held up by many as definitive statements as to quality. One of the worst is the tired old rope cutting thing… it really says very little about the knife or it s heat treatment yet one of the worst clichéd advertising photos in the business is a pile of rope particles. It is also no secret that I am not a fan of any type of “flexing” that is held up as proof of heat treatment, once again there is total confusion as to what is being measured.

If we are going to use vague or very general tests I believe they should simulate as closely as possible how a knife will actually be used, thus the best test is to use the knife for what it was intended and see how it does! Compare it to factory knife if you like and then instead of slamming the edges together, closely examine the geometries of both to get an idea of the differences from the better performer to the lesser one. One method I used to use a lot was to find a butcher near you that does dear processing this time of year and offer to let him use your knives for a week and compare them to his own. They will see a heck of a lot more deer skinning in the hands of somebody who knows what they are doing than with you alone, and you can be making other knives while yours are being tested! I doubt you will find many local deer processors who would turn you down, as to them knives are tools and toys as well and they love the opportunity to try new ones out.
 
I'd just like to add, for the consumers reading this, that we makers do in shop tests on our knives in order to learn and to gain confidence in our product. However, this doesn't mean that you should go out and try to duplicate these tests on the knives you own. Even though a knife may pass the tests several times with flying colors (or may not), there is the chance with some of the semi destructive tests that the blade could be weakened or damaged in a way that is not clearly visible to the naked eye. In other words, don't take your knives out and start whacking metal bars and such. Long term field testing for the intended use of the knife is the best way for the consumer to go.

I generally reserve the semi destructive type tests for knives that I plan to keep, and if I do sell them, I sell them discounted as used.
 
I do think that Kevin's test of chopping into metal bars is a pretty good test, and will tell you a lot real quick, but only if you know what it is you are looking for and what to expect on different types of knives. I've used similar tests and usually push the blade to the point where I can start to see something, chipping, deformation, indentation etc... Using either brass or mild steel or starting with brass and moving up to mild steel. However, you still need something to compare the results to.

I've tried this test on a number of knives, custom and factory, other than my own, out of curiosity for comparison. There were a few knives that were severely damaged surprisingly easy, mostly the customs... dang near finger nail sized pieces popping out the edge and other major damage, way before they should have IMO… with just a single light 45 degree angle blow into a 3/8 inch round brass rod. After words I decided that the test was somewhat abusive and that the knives probably would have worked O.K. had they been used for normal light duty EDC stuff.

So, I think Kevin's test is a much better test. Although, it's not perfect, takes common sense and experience to analyze, has a lot of variables etc., as he has already suggested...

Neat test Kevin! I knew you'd come through. :)
 
Last edited:
I'm going to try using the pushing rather than the whacking test as it does sound lot less abusive. Would this help anyway with having like a set of rods to test with ie: all the way from brass to mild steel, then having a set of rods with known hardness up to like a definitive Rockwell "C" 63 or 64? I don't have access to a Rockwell testing machine nearby, as most beginners don't. The old brass rod edge flex technique doesn't work on my knives as they are mainly convex ground. Thanks for the suggestions!!
 
The most hard to pass test for my kitchen knives is to bang the edges to some ceramic mugs and glasses, damages on these delicate edges more than metals. It will happen anyway in hard kitchen use. Some time a knife passed brass rod test gets some damage from ceramic or glass. Even a couple of degrees on the edge angle makes great differences. I plan to test some more different temper degrees though, maybe it will improve and I'll be able to reduce edge angles a bit (this struggle is my latest obsession)...
 
I'd just like to add, for the consumers reading this, that we makers do in shop tests on our knives in order to learn and to gain confidence in our product. However, this doesn't mean that you should go out and try to duplicate these tests on the knives you own. Even though a knife may pass the tests several times with flying colors (or may not), there is the chance with some of the semi destructive tests that the blade could be weakened or damaged in a way that is not clearly visible to the naked eye. In other words, don't take your knives out and start whacking metal bars and such. Long term field testing for the intended use of the knife is the best way for the consumer to go.

I generally reserve the semi destructive type tests for knives that I plan to keep, and if I do sell them, I sell them discounted as used.

And this is a great point that I wished I had thought of but am very glad you brought up Tai. Destructive or semidestructive testing is exactly that and if you have good knife that you want to last for years you need to treat it right! I would not be happy with customer who asked me to touch up one of my knives after he decided to hack up a pile of rebar:grumpy:
 
Back
Top