Edge Retention of Murray Carter Wharncliffe Neck Knife

E

Eager

Joined
Oct 9, 2002
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I'm really taken by these Murray Carter Wharncliffe "neck" knives, but I'm a little concerned about it's edge holding ability, particularly in light of the following post, that never seemed to get resolved.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196397&highlight=Murray+Carter+roll Can those of you who have these Carter knives comment on the edge holding ability.

I'm really looking for a 3" fixed blade utility knife that cuts and holds and edge very well, so I really should get a Dozier, and I've been planning to do so, i.e. get a Dozier K-9, and I will someday. It's just that this Carter is so beautiful. I've never held a Dozier, so I can't really say, but everytime I tell myself I should get one now, I find something else a bit more...appealing astetically, and cheaper.

The blade on the Carter is a sandwich of Hitachi White steel between 410 SS.

ba00515.jpg
 
Well, for starter, Murray Carter holds Master Smith rating in ABS. You sure will get a quality knife that will hold a great edge.

On the other hand, Dozier also makes nice knives. Really close call.

I'd go with Murray Carter.
 
Just to guide things even more..I have good background info. on both Carter and Dozier. What I'm really looking for is experiences that can be offered regarding the edge holding abilty of the Carter Muteki blades like the one shown.
 
I have an MC Wabocho kitchen knife that I like quite a bit. I've never sharpened it, it has just been steeled fairly often, so I'm not sure if I'd run in to the same problem as described in your link.

As for its edge holding it seems fine. As good or probably better than the Wustoff Trident knives I have. It has mostly cut raw fish and seaweed though, so a neck knife might see quite different use.
 
I have one and also a Dozier Master Skinner.

The problem encountered by rad148 is because the edge is zero bevel, meaning this is meant to cut like a kitchen knife and not like a tactical knife i.e. a Strider. Personally I prefer the edge to roll rather than chip and with the blade at 61-63 Hrc this is amazing stuff. I have had ats34 chip at 60Hrc. Also his blades are not meant for steeling because of the zero bevel edge. I have talked to MC and he says that if you want tougher blade edge than just bevel the edge where the rolling stops. Also the same if the blade chips. Do send him an email and ask for his catalog. They are very in formative and you would have a bit more background on his work. Do you know how the ABS are tested? The hallmark of a good blade is one that does not chip. This is also what the brass rod test does. This is also the limitation that separates the carbon and stainless steels. I would say get the MC because:-

1. The weight difference.
2. The handle profile.
3. Carbon vs Semi Stainless - the MC get blued real quick whatever you do.
 
this is not directly relevant to your question, but if you've never held a Dozier you should know that they are very stout, thus hefty, knives for their size. He does make knives specifically for neck-wear, but they are significantly smaller & lighter than his small belt knives.
 
kevtan :

The problem encountered by rad148 is because the edge is zero bevel ...
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No, I have lots of knives like that (Japanese and otherwise) and they will not roll under similar conditions.

-Cliff
 
Rad148 mentioned he steeled the knife everytime before using.
Maybe he "over steeled" that knife and weakened the edge?
 
Another clarification: I won't be using the Carter knife as a neck knife. I will will probably have a belt sheath made and (really) use it as a utility knife (lets say, for comparison purposes, typically cutting cardboard).

I know there's some of you out there who've used these Carter Muteki "neck" knives. Let me hear your experience with it, particularly edge holding ability in a utility role.

Kevtan, you say you have one. Let's hear your experiences with it.
 
Steeling does weaken the edge ubt not to that extent and the behavior was also seen immediately after sharpening, a cut into cardboard and the edge rolled. Now to be frank I don't think this is the expected behavior of his knives, what concerns me is the total lack of responce by the maker to a custom who had repeated problems after buying three of his knives. Carter was aware of the thread as I discussed it with him in email. After that I lost interest in his knives as I had no desire to work with a maker with such a viewpoint. I have no doubt that he makes some fine quality knives but so do lots of other makers which far better customer service.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I would be interested in knowing what type problems you experienced with his customs.
I have had a couple of his blades and one of them, don't remember the model name, but the edge didn't hold up to cutting small, saplings. His workmanship is excellent.
Thanks!
 
I have had similar experience cutting dried bamboo and I called MC and what he told me is to just bevel the edge at 30deg or the shallowest setting of the 204. No more problem since.

Cliff, I am under the impression that you have reviewed MC's knives and have hands on experience, Is this true? The rolling maybe just the wire edge like those experienced by carbon steels in particular the M2, A2, 5160 and simple carbon steels 1050 to 01.

Eager, I have both his Muteki wharncliff which I got from tadgear and also the Muteki Kiridashi. If you want a sampler then just get the Kiridashi @ $40 + $10 shipping( may cost more or less). It also comes in a simple leather sheath.

http://www.tadgear.com/edged tools/custom knives/kiridashi.htm

The $40 one comes in satin finish without the dimples without the cord wrap althought it does have a lanyard hole and a beautifully tied lanyard of black shoelace. The leather is smooth without the toolworks.
 
I have no hands-on experience with MC's knives but in my experiments with "enhancing" the performance of O-1 steel, I came across an unexpected problem. Another fellow knifemaker also experienced something similar with (???) S30V, if I remember correctly. It may explain what was happening with the MC knife in question.

I found that doing a deep freeze and triple tempering cycles on O-1 increases the hardness, toughness, grain size and wear resistance by a noticable amount. But when it came to sharpening the first few PROTO blades, I just couldn't get it "sharp." It would easily produce a very LONG WIRE EDGE that kept rolling / folding over, and the usual number of passes on the Spyderco Sharpmaker stick just couldn't get rid of the wire. It wouldn't shave, cut cleanly or consistently in the push cut and slicing made a strange gritty sensation. I was convinced I had butchered the HT altogether, then with a few extra (about 4x as much stropping) the wire edge fell off and then the cutting magic happened.

I'm wondering if on the MC knives the steel used if that much more elastic (more an issue than hardness per se) so the wire takes a lot more effort to remove to create the "actual" sharpness.

A friend who experimented with S30V said he had a sort-of similar problem with S30V and his knife wouldn't cut, wouldn't shave, and it always looked like the edge was rolled. But halfway through his chopping and rope cutting tests he accidentally slashed himself quite badly on the leg, and he found that his knife was now cutting more aggressively than before the exhaustive cutting tests. It seems to me that all that prior cutting had finally removed the wire edge and he was finally experiencing the actual sharpness of the blade.

just my 2 cents and a stab in the dark at what the problem might be.

My impression of the knives in question are :-

Dozier knives if you like knives built like tractors and D2 steel qualities - extremely utilitarian, absolutely no-frills approach to a working knife.

MC knives are "supposed" to perform well - the above issue not withstanding. I also think they have a more "custom" or "handbuilt" character about them than the Doziers, even if the MC knives are also quite straightforward in styling.

Sorry for the long post. Jason.
 
Jason, I admire your gumption on your choice of proffesion. I have had similar experience in my handmade kitchen knives out of 1" mechanical hacksaw blades. Just could not get rid of the wire edge and sharpened some more until I get about 1mm lenght of the wire edge. Funny thing is my mother saw the wire edge I was trying to get rid of, she took the knife and just sliced a piece of hardwood and got rid if the wire edge. Only thing is because I have the blade zero bevel, it can only be used for light cutting.
 
berettaman12000 :

I would be interested in knowing what type problems you experienced with his customs.
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I have not used them, though have used that style of knife extensively. I was interested in them for awhile mainly curious about high RC edges on heavier use knives and laminations, I had no interest after the above thread. You should not need a 30 degree edge bevel to cut cardboard, nor saplings, nor bamboo. Any steel will hold up to anything if you bevel it heavy enough, you buy better knives so you don't have to.

Regarding wire edges, the steel Carter uses is known for creating very sharp edges and being used at very high hardness, it is what the Japanese pride steels for. They are also very simple low alloy steels and thus very easy to abrade. They behave nothing like S30V or similar high alloy steels which can be very difficult to get a crisp edge on when they are less than very hard.

Yes it can be difficult to remove a wire edge by stropping as that is the most ineffective way to remove a burr, that style of honing actually is what creates burrs, Lee shows a graphical representation of this in his book on sharpening. Removing a burr should be done with edge-into honing, increae the edge angle slightly, take a pass or two and its done. Make sure to use an aggressive clean hone and just enough pressure to insure abrasion. Jeff Clark has written extensively on the subject in past threads.

Back to materials, the only problem with such japanese steels is that they can chip out readily both in use and in sharpening which is why the japanese prefer the softer cutting action of the natural waterstones which are flaky like pastry when viewed under magnification.

-Cliff
 
Mr.Stamp,would you please write more about your experience about cutting bamboo with those high RC hardness blades?Any chipping experienced?Bamboo,especially the dried bamboo joints,are really tough to cut.In my experience,if a knife performs well on dried and green bamboo,it's the knife that suit my needs well usually.I cut bamboo dried or green quite often,therefore,the performance on bamboo means a lot to me.Thank you.
 
Cliff Stamp, thanks for your input on sharpening. I find it most enlightening. While I haven't had any problems with my sharpening technique so far, its always good to hear the more experienced commentary.

Just to clarify. I ALSO use the edge in honing at a more obtuse angle on a super fine ceramic rod to get rid of the wire. Its just that I've had similar results using both techniques so far.

Also, I only use the low-alloy steels, the highest alloy I use is RWL-34, so the above-mentioned issues may become more apparent when I start working with the newer supersteels. Thanks Jason.
 
Originally posted by Jason Cutter
Just to clarify. I ALSO use the edge in honing at a more obtuse angle on a super fine ceramic rod to get rid of the wire. Its just that I've had similar results using both techniques so far.
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Let's see if I can beat Cliff to it. :)

That's your problem right there. Ceramic. Try fine diamond to remove it, then continue with the ceramic.
 
lsstaipei :

...your experience about cutting bamboo ...
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Bamboo fishing poles used to be very popular around here 25 years or so ago, at the end of the summer (or before depending on how the fishing went), it was common to see the poles being used for other things, whips, bows, spears and the like. It is an interesting material to cut being hard and not chopping well as it can't support the impact of a heavy blade and is best sawed.

Inbetween the joints it isn't very demanding and there are much harder woods to cut, however the hardness goes up at the joints but more importantly the grain of the wood changes and it becomes much more difficult to cut. In any case, 15 degrees per side is actually very obtuse, that is the angle for example that I put on large 10" bowies and they cut hard knots all the time even on frozen woods.

But yeah I would agree that cutting bamboo is a large step above saplings and in a different league than cardboard and ropes, if the problems in the above linked thread had come about from whitting into bamboo joints then I would be much more willing to accept Carters viewpoint of changing the edge angle slightly. However there are not many steels that can't do that then.

Jason Cutter :

... super fine ceramic rod
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These are as bad or worse than stropping. Ceramic rods induce very high localized pressures on an edge and will roll it *very* easily, hence the use of smooth steels to realign edges. As Possum noted, diamond rods are better in this regard as they allow the same honing action with a much lighter force. Better still is a much wider abrasive like a two inch stone.

the above-mentioned issues may become more apparent when I start working with the newer supersteels
Click to expand...

They don't have to, it just happens when the hardening doesn't well suit the nature of the steel. Low hardness with a low machniability is a horrible combination.

Note, in regards to persistant burrs being a sign of a quality steel as it indicates toughness - this is false. Any steel is ductile at that extreme level of thinness. More often than not this is a sign of a poor heat treatment meaning a flaw in the process, or a hardness that doesn't well suit the nature of the steel.

In some cases it is just the expected behavior of course, lots of machetes for example behave this way as since they are so soft (~45 HRC) they bend very readily and can be very difficult to get crisp edges unless wide hones are used throughout the honing process. They will roll almost even looking at a rod.

-Cliff
 
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