Edge Retention versus Toughness Solved. (A pro-toughness post)

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Blues said:
My old friend and a wonderful maker, the late Kit Carson was a fan of 440C. Oddly enough, I remember having issues sharpening it back in the late 90's...before I accumulated more suitable sharpening gear.
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I think the trick is to not let it get wore down to dull. It's a wonderful steel if you just give it a few licks when you feel it resisting the cut. I still sharpen free hand on a 1000 diamond plate, then a quick strop. For me, I seem to have to tinker a little longer when I sharpen S30V
 
Surname said:
Maybe I'm mistaken, but this sounds more like an argument for edge stability than knife toughness.

A knife can be incredibly tough (i.e. difficult to break) but not hold and edge well. It may not microchip, but it means frequent sharpening, and we're right back to square one.

Also, don't forget edge geometry. If you have an edge that is chipping, making the edge geometry slightly thicker may solve the problem completely. Geometry can solve many, many problems.

And of course what you prioritize should be determined by what task you want the knife to perform... but I'm not going to get into that.

For a general purpose knife, I think it need to be tough enough for normal use, hold an edge long enough to get through a normal day, and be able to hold a good edge angle without issue. If it is lacking in any one of those, you'll likely end the day frustrated.
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I frequently hand sharpen free hand, and i only own one pocket knife so it has to be general purpose. That's why I'd prefer something that works well without chipping out with a variety of edge angles, as freehand sharpening im not putting my blade in a jig every time nowadays. just getting it sharp and going. Going with consistent geometry is too labor intensive for what i do.
 
Blues said:
My old friend and a wonderful maker, the late Kit Carson was a fan of 440C. Oddly enough, I remember having issues sharpening it back in the late 90's...before I accumulated more suitable sharpening gear.
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Speaking of 440C I went to Ted Dowell's shop two years ago, his son was selling his father's steel and equipment.

Ted was one of the founding members of the Knifemakers Guild and was one of the early "steel guys" of his era pushing the boundaries of steel and heat treatment for cutting performance.

I got to talk to his son and look at his notebook.

He did some of the earliest performance improvement testing on 440C and discovered that cryogenics had vastly improved the sharpening and edge performance on the 440C keep in mind this was back in the early 1970s.

Makes you wonder how much of what we think of is the actual steel or the processing of the steel.
 
jameeson said:
'A micro chipped edge will still cut where a rolled edge will not' ... forgot where I heard this phrase but it stuck with me
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chips are more annoying to be because to remedy a chip, you must sharpen down to the lowest point in the chip to truly remove it.
 
KnightAspirant said:
chips are more annoying to be because to remedy a chip, you must sharpen down to the lowest point in the chip to truly remove it.
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I agree and understand. But to me the argument stands. I had a rolled compromised edge on a NitroV blade, where my chipped lil native in 10v was still cutting, although it didn't look pretty. Obviously best to avoid both rolled edges and chips and geometry can level the playing field.
 
I prefer balanced. It's well known that I am not a fan of extreme edge retention with very low toughness. Knife enthusiasts flock to these steels because it gives them yet another chance to add to their collection of their favorite Spyderco. It's no accident that Rex 121 and 15V are disappearing.
 
One is allowed to carry more than one knife at a time. I do. A different steel each.

Some Wizards want to promote their latest spell? I'll try it.

I'll buy it when Buck starts offering it. I trust their, well everything.

Buck 110, out of their CKS; with this steel?
 
Ron Texas said:
I prefer balanced. It's well known that I am not a fan of extreme edge retention with very low toughness. Knife enthusiasts flock to these steels because it gives them yet another chance to add to their collection of their favorite Spyderco. It's no accident that Rex 121 and 15V are disappearing.
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That has nothing to do why they were disappearing. It was a technical reason based on the manufacturer capabilities at scale.

Also if the only metric that matters is if a knife chips or not we should certainly have a conversation with my friend Mr. 25 degrees per side.

If you need it to absolutely never chip might be better to go 90° per side If sharpness, cutting ability doesn't matter. Especially if using a knife like a knife to cut things with proper use is impossible.
 
DeadboxHero said:
That has nothing to do why they were disappearing. It was a technical reason based on the manufacturer capabilities at scale.

Also if the only metric that matters is if a knife chips or not we should certainly have a conversation with my friend Mr. 25 degrees per side.

If you need it to absolutely never chip might be better to go 90° per side If sharpness, cutting ability doesn't matter. Especially if using a knife like a knife to cut things with proper use is impossible.
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It's correct the new owner's equipment was not capable of making these high vanadium steels. However, there isn't enough demand to warrant the investment. I would go so far as to say exotic steels like Rex 121 were a factor in the Crucible bankruptcy. Maybe I'm a barbarian, but I love D2.
 
Ron Texas said:
It's correct the new owner's equipment was not capable of making these high vanadium steels. However, there isn't enough demand to warrant the investment. I would go so far as to say exotic steels like Rex 121 were a factor in the Crucible bankruptcy. Maybe I'm a barbarian, but I love D2.
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I'm pretty certain that the business environment in NY didn't do any wonders for Crucible. It would be more accurate to blame RexHochul and everyone like her in Albany. You put that same mill in TN and it would still be pumping out steel.
 
You're new here, you'll get the lay of the land. (Or you won't.) It doesn't happen overnight.
 
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