Edge retention: Vintage US Axes Versus Modern Swedish

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joshiecole

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Apr 29, 2012
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Can anyone tell me from experience how the edge retention of vintage US-made axes compares to modern Swedish axes like Gransfors, Hults Bruks etc.

I have read comments that Gransfors axes have a similar hardness to old American axes like Plumb and Kelly, but I haven't come across any specific comments on their comparative edge retention. Is the edge retention roughly similar?

If anyone has both a Gransfors and say an old Kelly or Sager or S&N axe I'd really like to hear their experience.
 
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Edge retention is similar, in my experience. The geometry is different though, resulting in different performance in various wood.
 
halfaxe said:
Edge retention is similar, in my experience. The geometry is different though, resulting in different performance in various wood.
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Exactly this. I have a GB small forest axe, and the edge retention seems about even with my 50s Sager, my Plumb rockaway, and my other vintage American heads. But the geometry is very different.
 
That's interesting. Thanks for your responses. By geometry, I presume you mean the high center line on the older axes?
 
Bingo. My GB has somewhat hollow cheeks...good for limbing and cutting soft, green wood. By contrast, my Americans have flatter, but more usually high centerlines, good for splitting and cutting harder woods (and popping chips without sticking).
 
Well I have a Kelly Handmade cruiser and an old and battered Kelly Connecticut pattern on their way to me right now, and I'm very excited to try them out.
 
Well one of my parcels have arrived, and I confirm that vintage American steel is impressive. The difference in hardness between my Kelly double bit and my modern Council Boy's axe is astonishing. It is very difficult to sharpen with a file and I'm resorting to my knife sharpening stones.

20150612_2029581_zpsbxzv9cty.jpg
 
Good for you! Likely not much hardened steel left in this old girl, and the exterior was rust-hardened to the extreme, but now you've got yourself a real axe.
 
From the ring of the steel I'd guess there's plenty of life left in this old girl. If I compare this to an equally oxidized 18th century Indian tulwar I bought a while back, this axe edge is significantly harder.
 
Old North American made axes (U.S. & Canada) tended to be made with bits of higher carbon steel than current makers use (both U.S. and Swedish makers). The increased carbon makes a blade or bit more hardenable - -i.e. it will quench to a higher RC hardness - and also tougher, giving it more wear resistance.

In the hardening and tempering process steel is first quenched to a very high hardness - often too hard (brittle) for the final tool. It is subsequently tempered - reheated - to remove some of the brittleness and add toughness. The higher the heat used in the tempering process the more hardness is lost but the more toughness is gained.

Generally speaking, higher carbon steels retain more wear resistance than lower carbon steels when both are tempered back to the same RC hardness. So there is an advantage to using higher carbon steels in an axe bit - increased wear resistance.

Current Gransfors Bruk axes are made will a steel very similar to 1055 steel - containing .55% carbon - on the lower end of what are considered high carbon steels. Vintage N.A. axes were commonly made with bit of higher carbon content. For many years the U.S Forest Service specified that axes would be made from "fully killed plain carbon AISI/SAE steel containing 0.72 to 0.93 percent carbon". It was known that this higher carbon steel produced better wear resistance than lower carbon steels. Agricultural steels like plow disks and harrows were similarly made from higher carbon steels like 1080 - .80% carbon for the same reason.

Bottom line, a top shelf vintage North American axe will be made with a higher carbon bit than current Swedish import axes and the vintage axe will have better edge retention and wear resistance.
 
Square_peg said:
Bottom line, a top shelf vintage North American axe will be made with a higher carbon bit than current Swedish import axes and the vintage axe will have better edge retention and wear resistance.
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America wins again! Suck it! ;)
 
America wins again! Suck it!
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Another way of looking at it, given the American genius for turning out a nice axe and the Australian talent for timber sports, is that if you send an Englishman to live on another continent then all kinds of axe magic can happen. ;)
 
joshiecole said:
Another way of looking at it, given the American genius for turning out a nice axe and the Australian talent for timber sports, is that if you send an Englishman to live on another continent then all kinds of axe magic can happen. ;)
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Or Irish, Frenchmen, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch just for starters. But I'm just ribbing you. :)
 
Or Irish, Frenchmen, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch just for starters. But I'm just ribbing you.
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I lived in France for a year or so back, and I can tell you there are certainly things you miss about living in a country with the Magna Carta as an inheritance. And, I'll always have a fondness for the countries who can claim it. Having said that, both my country and yours are tending towards European despotism these days. Anyway, I've turned an interesting technical thread into a Whine and Cheese type thread. I apologize to everyone.

Generally speaking, higher carbon steels retain more wear resistance than lower carbon steels when both are tempered back to the same RC hardness. So there is an advantage to using higher carbon steels in an axe bit - increased wear resistance.
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Higher carbon (all other things being equal) should give superior wear-resistance to abrasion. But if the cause of wear were most commonly hard impacts then lower carbon and greater toughness could be beneficial. However, in the latter case, it'd probably pay to improve one's skills and stop hitting rocks and learn to work around hard knots.
 
joshiecole said:
Another way of looking at it, given the American genius for turning out a nice axe and the Australian talent for timber sports, is that if you send an Englishman to live on another continent then all kinds of axe magic can happen. ;)
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Put any people in a country with huge stands of timber, abundant coal and iron deposits and good axes will result.
 
Put any people in a country with huge stands of timber, abundant coal and iron deposits and good axes will result.
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Yes, I was just indulging in some tongue in cheek Friday night banter with Mr Lyttle.

Regarding the vintage American axes made with the "overcoat" method, here are a couple of steel formulations for that use which have 1.0% Carbon:

"Fagersta Overcoat Axe"
(listed for Fagersta Bruks, Sweden, and Achorn Steel Co., USA)
C 1%
Mn 0.25%
balance Fe

"HSC Overcoat Axe"
(listed for Hoyland Steel Co., UK)
C 1%
Mn 0.25%
Si 0.15%
balance Fe
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Thankyou very much for sharing this Mr Tall, that's really valuable. It's interesting that those old axe manufacturers used such high carbon steel when the prevailing wisdom today is that you would want to choose a hypoeutectoid steel for a large chopper or axe.
 
joshiecole said:
... It's interesting that those old axe manufacturers used such high carbon steel when the prevailing wisdom today is that you would want to choose a hypoeutectoid steel for a large chopper or axe.
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Perhaps having most of the axe head made of iron (or softer low-carbon steel) was a factor.
 
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