Edged tool vs. fire...which is Mankind's most important tool?

Our brain and bodies are the greatest tools.

Without our brain, we wouldn't be thinking about it, we wouldn't have the internet as we know it.

Fire is not a natural resource, just like knives of any description are a natural resource. Use for a purpose makes something a tool.

Any version of faith from evolution to creation is immaterial. What matters is that we learned how to make beer!

More on point, fire and knives have advanced technologically to the point of Bics, Zippos, road flares, Napalm and its byproducts, ferro rods, fatwood available at wal-mart, fire pastes, all sorts of torches, Incandescent light bulbs, electricity.

Knives from stone, copper, bronze, whatever, required the use of fire (sans stone).

Thought and communication are the real tools behind it.
 
jdm61 said:
Okay. Le me throw another monkey wrench into the machinery by saying that perhaps SPOKEN LANGUAGE and the ability to engage in and communicate abstract thought was our most important "invention." ;)
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+1

We ain't no smarter than cavemen. We've just built this huge database of knowledge (words) to refer to.
 
okay, i change my answer.... there IS a clear winner here

Can't make Beer without fire.... don't need a knife to make beer... life without beer is not worth living, even if you've got a 5 foot tall pile of knives

Fire wins...
 
kniferbro said:
scrapers and edged tools came much earlier than the controlled use of fire, So I'm going to say edged tools!

Also, a lot of people don't realize that the advent of the edged tool along with its application didn't just allow original man to cut things. It forged the concept of manipulation of materials. Where a stick used to be a stick, now a stick could be manipulated to become a spear. Once man realized this crucial concept, the entire game changed. All of these objects and materials that could be used as they occur naturally could now be shaped and changed to fit specific functions, or objects that served no purpose could now be changed to serve a function.
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You are correct. Edged tools, specifically the hand axe, came along about 1.4 million years ago. Definitive evidence of control of fire is at about 400k years though the jury is still out on that. The difficulty is in trying to determine if Homo was actually controlling fire, or merely in the vicinity of a fire. That said, some theories put chipping of flint with the associated sparks may have lead to accidental fires in human living areas. This may have been quite common and eventually lead to the actual, purposful building and control of fire.

Theories aboutnd and this is, indeed an interesting subject.
 
BePrepared said:
okay, i change my answer.... there IS a clear winner here

Can't make Beer without fire.... don't need a knife to make beer... life without beer is not worth living, even if you've got a 5 foot tall pile of knives

Fire wins...
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You need an edged tool to harvest the hops, barley, wheat etc to make beer.
 
Coyote3855 said:
Yeah, yeah.... How did they baton firewood without a blade? Answer me that one, smart guys.
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I can't tell if this is a real question or a bit of humor.

I'm assuming it's humor.

mitch_mckee said:
You are correct. Edged tools, specifically the hand axe, came along about 1.4 million years ago. Definitive evidence of control of fire is at about 400k years though the jury is still out on that. The difficulty is in trying to determine if Homo was actually controlling fire, or merely in the vicinity of a fire. That said, some theories put chipping of flint with the associated sparks may have lead to accidental fires in human living areas. This may have been quite common and eventually lead to the actual, purposful building and control of fire.

Theories abound and this is, indeed an interesting subject.
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This makes me believe, even stonger, that fire was more important. If 1 million years passed between edged tools and controlled fire then we need to imagine that man was an extremely primitive being until fire was able to be controlled and that 400 thousand years ago there was a major leap in evolution.
 
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timbit said:
You need an edged tool to harvest the hops, barley, wheat etc to make beer.
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Trust me sir, if it came down to it, i could harvest all that stuff with nothing but a stick with a gopher tied to it

I takes my beer very seriously....
 
BePrepared said:
Trust me sir, if it came down to it, i could harvest all that stuff with nothing but a stick with a gopher tied to it

I takes my beer very seriously....
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I don't know about harvesting hops but I think an angry gopher tied to a stick might be one heck of a defensive weapon.
 
mitch_mckee said:
I don't know about harvesting hops but I think an angry gopher tied to a stick might be one heck of a defensive weapon.
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Badger Club FTW

tumblr_lphfhne9nt1qj8bffo1_500.png
 
mitch_mckee said:
You are correct. Edged tools, specifically the hand axe, came along about 1.4 million years ago. Definitive evidence of control of fire is at about 400k years though the jury is still out on that. The difficulty is in trying to determine if Homo was actually controlling fire, or merely in the vicinity of a fire. That said, some theories put chipping of flint with the associated sparks may have lead to accidental fires in human living areas. This may have been quite common and eventually lead to the actual, purposful building and control of fire.

Theories aboutnd and this is, indeed an interesting subject.
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wasn't going to but I am now.
I've Been Knapping since 1996, and have never accidentally started a fire and have met hundreds of knappers, and not one time have i ever met one that started a fire from knapping flint.
I'm not sure but i would bet you can't do it flint on flint or hammer stone on flint, and most definitely not antler(deer or moose) on flint.
from what I've read knapping(crude knapping) goes back 2.6 million years.

This is from wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_tools

The earliest known Oldowan tools yet found date from 2.6 million years ago, during the Lower Palaeolithic period, and have been uncovered at Gona in Ethiopia.[3] After this date, the Oldowan Industry subsequently spread throughout much of Africa, although archaeologists are currently unsure which Hominan species first developed them, with some speculating that it was Australopithecus garhi, and others believing that it was in fact the more highly evolved Homo habilis.[4] Homo habilis was the hominin who used the tools for most of the Oldowan in Africa, but at about 1.9-1.8 million years ago Homo erectus inherited them. The Industry flourished in southern and eastern Africa between 2.6 and 1.7 million years ago, but was also spread out of Africa and into Eurasia by travelling bands of H. erectus, who took it as far east as Java by 1.8 million years ago and Northern China by 1.6 million years ago.

Not saying it doesn't exist(accidental fire theory) but if it does I've never heard of it.
 
Haze said:
Fire is not a "tool", at best it's a natural resource that was discovered. Early man did not create fire from nothing having never seen it before the same way hand held tools were.
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Fire is not a tool. Tell that to a Welder. or a Cook. LOL :D:D
 
heresthedeal said:
wasn't going to but I am now.
I've Been Knapping since 1996, and have never accidentally started a fire and have met hundreds of knappers, and not one time have i ever met one that started a fire from knapping flint.
I'm not sure but i would bet you can't do it flint on flint or hammer stone on flint, and most definitely not antler(deer or moose) on flint.
from what I've read knapping(crude knapping) goes back 2.6 million years.

This is from wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_tools

The earliest known Oldowan tools yet found date from 2.6 million years ago, during the Lower Palaeolithic period, and have been uncovered at Gona in Ethiopia.[3] After this date, the Oldowan Industry subsequently spread throughout much of Africa, although archaeologists are currently unsure which Hominan species first developed them, with some speculating that it was Australopithecus garhi, and others believing that it was in fact the more highly evolved Homo habilis.[4] Homo habilis was the hominin who used the tools for most of the Oldowan in Africa, but at about 1.9-1.8 million years ago Homo erectus inherited them. The Industry flourished in southern and eastern Africa between 2.6 and 1.7 million years ago, but was also spread out of Africa and into Eurasia by travelling bands of H. erectus, who took it as far east as Java by 1.8 million years ago and Northern China by 1.6 million years ago.

Not saying it doesn't exist(accidental fire theory) but if it does I've never heard of it.
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I works with iron pyrite (fools gold). I'm not saying that his is the last word on the subject but it makes some good points:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Flint+and+pyrite:+making+fire+in+the+Stone+Age.-a065537223
 
mitch_mckee said:
I works with iron pyrite (fools gold). I'm not saying that his is the last word on the subject but it makes some good points:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Flint+and+pyrite:+making+fire+in+the+Stone+Age.-a065537223
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thats the first time I've read that, thanks.
well there you go, i'll have to stop using my iron pyrite hammer stone.
but then again, still never seen it happen. not to get off the subject, but i did read when i was a kid that hot water was used to knap flint. actually heard people say
it not that long ago. i tried that back in the 70s, as a child. almost lost an eye. not saying that the pyrite and flint thing could do that but a lot of things are written by people that have never done it.
who knows, first fire could have been an accident.

(the article still says its middle paleolithic,(fire) that's still 500,00-1,000,000 years apart from the stone tools)
 
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heresthedeal said:
thats the first time I've read that, thanks.
well there you go, i'll have to stop using my iron pyrite hammer stone.
but then again, still never seen it happen. not to get off the subject, but i did read when i was a kid that hot water was used to knap flint. actually heard people say
it not that long ago. i tried that back in the 70s, as a child. almost lost an eye. not saying that the pyrite and flint thing could do that but a lot of things are written by people that have never done it.
who knows, first fire could have been an accident.

(the article still says its middle paleolithic,(fire) that's still 500,00-1,000,000 years apart from the stone tools)
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From the first known uses of a hand axe to people figuring out how to tie the damn thing onto a stick and make a weapon was a long, long time. Learning is slow and over a period of hundreds of thoudands of years we have time for random events happen repeatedly. Maybe that was the way it was with fire. Starting a fire with sparks takes less knowledge that figuring out how to spin a stick fast enough and long enough to get a spark. The woods have to be right. One must be persitient (implying that the person was sure of success). Even if rubbing sticks together was the firwst method, the people had to have an edged tool to shape everyting.

In the scheme of things, no edgeded tools, no fire, no metal, in that order.
 
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