EdgePro Professional vs. Spyderco Sharpmaker

Although the error is not going to be a problem for most it seems that the Lansky/Gatco types of sharpeners allow the angle to vary along the length of the blade, unlike the crock stick type of sharpeners. The variation of not holding a blade perfectly vertical with a crock stick type of sharpener will just produce a desired Moran edge :^)
 
Ben didn't address this in his post but was kind enough to send me an e-mail with the advice. I have commented, as have Joe and others, that the Apex-1 is great but slow to set up and worse messy in use. Ben says that it is really unnecessary to drench the stones with water from the supplied little bottle. A simple wipe down with a wet cloth will suffice. All along I've been using a LOT of water. Looks like the messy bit is solved. Now if I only had a bit of kitchen counter space where I could leave the Apex-1 set up
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......

-=[Bob]=-

PS Joe is correct too about the scratch hazard. The aluminum plate can kill mirror finishes and using felt, cloth or whatever to buffer the metal to metal contact works but can get displaced easily and ruin your day. Dunno what other than a Apex-1 construction material change can solve this issue.

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 13 August 1999).]
 
To Ben Dale

Why not use ceramic stones instead of waterstones? They are available in various grits. Would these end the problem of scratching up knives? Inquiring minds want to know. It strikes me that they seem slower than waterstones but maybe have just a coarse in diamond.
 
I have read some posts relating that the Apex/Pro models are slow to set up and that it is relatively easy to scratch a blade, especially one with a mirror finish.
When I first got mine I would say that it never took me over 3/4 minutes to set it up properly.
As to scratching blades....I simply put some tape on the blade table and not once the blade itself and have yet to scratch a blade...however, when I sharpened the second blade with it I did put a small scratch on the finish and that is when I put some tape on the blade table.
If Ben does come up with diamond hones and/or sleeves for the machine, I will not be buying one as I don't need them and I have always thought they removed too much metal. I do think that the EF diamond hones are good for some of the super tough stainless blades if used properly, however, you can sharpen these type steels with the Edge Pro, just takes slightly longer than other steels.
I really like my "Pro" model and IMHO believe that it is the best knife sharpener out there if you want a blade to get the sharpest that it is capable of and you prefer the perfect edge!!
 
How well do these systems handle clip points and tantos? I really don't want to round off any corners? Not a problem with free hand BTW.
 
I've probably been using more water than necessary as well. Ben suggested I use a different kind of tape, which I'll try. Having had masking tape peel up on me and scratch my blades more than once, a good tape is really necessary.

Joe
 
I'm happy to report that my sharpening skills with the Pro model are improving quickly. I redid a kitchen knife just now and it came out very well.

It does take a while to master this device. But, it seems as though once you do, the results are really nice.

If you buy one, don't get frustrated quickly like I did. Give Ben a call and talk to him. He will explain things and I'm sure he has come across any problems that people have faced. I called and he helped me!

 
To beam

Before I had a 600 ultra fine stone I used to use 500 and 800 ceramic stones. They had a lot of problems that I don't have with aluninum oxide. They don't cut as smooth and they load up very fast so you constantly have to take them to the sink and scrub them clean with cleanser. I could not get them in the length I needed. Just before I stoped using them I was sending half of every order back because they were to warped to use.
The reason I keep testing diamonds is my coarse stone is messy to use because it breaks down so fast. Of corse that is why it cuts so fast. I even had a Cubic Boron Stone made to the tune of $80 for one stone. Cubic Boron is compatable with knife steel but it didn't work either. Any sugestions?
 
I watched Ben sharpen knives at the 1998 Oregon Knife show. He sharpened my Benchmade Sentinel to a mirror polished edge. I looked at the knife all year and at the 1999 Oregon show I bought the Professional model. Now I have a custom folder with 440V blade and mirror polished edge. Next year I'm buying the scissors sharpening attachment.

I also have the DMT Aligner (I use a Lansky clamp) with four hones, several sets of crock sticks, a Sharpmaker and a belt grinder with a worn 600 grit belt for convex edges. I use the Sharpmaker for touching up the edges of my knives.

Don, I'm glad your having success. Stick with it and every knife will be easier to sharpen.

Chuck Bybee

[This message has been edited by Chuck Bybee (edited 14 August 1999).]
 
I hate to let a sharpening discussion go by and have you folks think I don't love you anymore.

Anything the miracle jimcracks will do can be done just as well -- often better -- with the same equipment used for many thousands of years.

I considering marketing yet another miracle system -- the one most elderly knife users rely on. With a sufficient lack of ethics I could fleece folks just as well as the others are doing. My system would be a reasonably flat stone (two or three with the deluxe system), a small strop, and a wedge or two of wood for the angle impaired.

Next step is the miracle diet -- grow thin eating all you want. Then come the baldness nostrums. Why the field is virtually unlimited for those who'll stoop to take advantage of credulity.

------------------
Regards,
Desert Rat

 
To Ben

One cuttiing medium I have been impressed with is the blue alumina zirconium sanding sheets and belts. They work pretty fast for coarse cutting though not as fast as diamond. I use them more for woodworking tools on a glass plate (the Scary sharp system).
 
I think if folks are going to seriously consider sharpeners at these prices, they might take a look at getting a small belt sander. For under $100 you can get a benchtop 1"x30" or 1"x42" sander, some belts, an angle guide, and a leather stropping belt with rouge. This will let you do everything from completely regrinding the knife to putting a mirror-polished bevel on it (if desired), and with the use of an angle guide it's very simple. You can also make small knives and do 100 other things around the house. I do like to supplement my sander with a good set of V-sticks, but the sander is the backbone of my sharpening setup. I'm almost always very pleased with the results.

------------------
-Drew Gleason
Little Bear Knives
 
Well Desert Rat,

I wouldn't buy your ste because I can't put a good edge on free hand if my life depended on it.

I can put an edge on, but not like one can with his sysyem, you may want to read his website.

Also the word fleece has connotations, what you said comes close to a personal attack or question of his integrity. Is that the way you choose to communicate?

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com If I fail to check back with this thread and you want some info, email me.

Check out my review of the Kasper AFCK, thougths on the AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770/kasperafck.html

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770/index.html


 
OK Corduroy, I'm confused(easly done). I thought machine bad, hand sharpen good. Does a regular bench grinder do as well?
 
Drew,

Your not the first to suggest the belt grinder used in a slack mode with rouge. Rob Siminoch, Mike Collins and others use them to get hair popping edges quickly.
What model do you recommend?

-=[Bob]=-
 
Desert Rat

Alot of people don't want to or take the time
to learn to sharpen by hand. It is the same
reason compound bows were made. You don't
need the same amount of practice to maintain
accuracy with the compound with sights as with a recurve or stick bow shooting instictive. Being able to sharpen by hand is
just not for everyone. That's why they have
31+ flavors of icecream and many different
kinds of cars amongst other things. I shoot
traditional and sharpen by hand because out
in the boonies alot of things can go wrong
with and get broken with gagets. In the tagalong sheets that I give to my customers
I suggest they CAN sharpen it on a flat river
rock or flat surface. You may not come back to this post to read and I see you don't have
your e-mail tagged, but understand that GOD
has given all of us different gifts -- be thankful for the ones he has..
It seems as though your carrying some excess
anger that you probably don't really need. It
will grow your bones old before your time. If
you care to talk e-mail.

goshawk

------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Psalm 91




[This message has been edited by goshawk (edited 15 August 1999).]
 
Just want to put in a vote of confidence for Desert Rat. Although I too feel there's nothing wrong with jigs and rigs, especially considering freehand sharpening is a difficult skill to learn, it's nice that somebody is a consistent voice for "learn how to do it by hand". At the very least, maybe someone will be influenced to buy a jig/rig, but maybe learn some rudimentary by-hand skills as well.

Joe
 
Machines may be "cheating" (especially with angle guides, I guess), but when you look at the various complex systems available for folks to "hand" sharpen with, I think that distinction is vague even if you do consider it important. The whole basic idea is that you want an abrasive surface to move against the edge at a consistent angle, and you can do this many ways.

I have had a lot of luck doing this with belt-sander and I also like the fact that this gives me an enormous range of grits. A sharp 120-grit belt will take out nicks i minutes that would take hours by hand on stones. A well-worn 600-grit belt will put on a very fine edge, comparable to the finest ceramics. I haven't found a belt that matches waterstones in the 1000-grit range, but a power-strop will quickly put on a mirror-like edge that is difficult and time-consuming by hand stropping.

I don't think that I can get an edge like some folks achieve with waterstones, but with my own knives, at any rate, I can have them popping hair in a matter of minutes (and I can handle convex edges with ease, a real trick for most hand systems). If folks enjoy the skill and quiet concentration involved in fine hand-sharpening, more power to 'em. I enjoy this same state of mind when I do filework, for example. But here, I'm just talking about getting a good edge quickly ad easily.

I don't have any recommendations for a sander, except that it should accept 1" wide belts. I used to use my SEARS 2"x42" 1hp (it takes 1"x42" belts), but have found a tiny no-name 1"x30" 1/6hp just as effective for this task, while smaller and quieter. I definitely recommend trying power-stropping belts. Working with a magnifying lamp is also helpful.

My current favorite edge is to take the bevel down 220 to 320 to worn 600 grit. This is a pretty fine edge with decent bite and lasts well. I sometimes will power-strop to a polished edge (a really neat thing), but this lacks bite, so I then take a couple of passes with fine crock-sticks. This edge slides through material like a polished one, but bites like a much rougher edge. Doesn't last as long as the 600-grit, though.

Your mileage may vary. Even with machines and systems, it's more art than science. I don't claim these are the best edges ever, but they're fast, easy, and they make my left arm bald.

-Drew
 
I can get a decent coarse edge by hand, but as soon as I move into the finer grits, I am lost.

But with a s Spyderco Sharpmaker I can touch them up to shaving easy.

I am looking at buying one for the full range of flawless edges.

But I still practice my "If it all goes in the toilet" skills.

MDP
 
The sharpeners under discussion - EdgePro Apex, Spyderco Sharpmaker and the belt sander - are very different animals suited to different needs.

The EdgePro is a bit of trouble to set up but gives excellent results. Angles are accurate, and vary little with changes of blade position because of the machine's large overall size. It is the best rod-guided system I have seen, but it is a tool for the perfectionist and the craftsman. Yes, it is messy, but less so than using oil.

I would like to see the EdgePro with diamond hones, but I am intrigued by Ben Dale's comments on them. Diamond hones require a light touch because of the limited strength of the nickel binder, so perhaps the EdgePro is not the right application for them.

The Sharpmaker is the best crock stick around, and the triangular rods and the diamond sleeves give five choices of cutting different speeds and finishes. The other rod positions make it useful for scissors, fishhooks and lots of other things. It is easy to use, so I can set one up in a kitchen and expect the cook to keep his/her knives in fairly sharp condition. There is more here for the money than almost anywhere else.

The downsides of the Sharpmaker are few and none are of much consequence for ordinary uses such as kitchen knives. Every degree that your stroke goes off of vertical is a degree of change in the bevel. The resulting edge is somewhat convex. And ceramic rod systems usually round off the tip of the blade as you complete the slicing stroke over the tip. This can be overcome with the Sharpmaker by working the tip only on the flat sides of the hones with a vertical stroke.

Belt grinders make excellent sharpeners. So do paper wheel systems. I use a 2" knifemaker's grinder, but the 1" belt sanders seem to work just fine, and leather honing belts are readily available for them. Regular bench grinders are not suited for knife sharpening because of the potential for overheating the blade and tempering or softening the edge. Low speed grinders equipped with a good rest and friable aluminum oxide wheels are better, but still are best suited for other edged tools like turning tools. Of course, you have to maintain the bevel angle by hand with any of these.

Wet wheel grinders are another sharpener to consider; they allow you to take off larger amounts of metal without overheating the blade. I bought a Tormek mainly for its large assortment of jigs for knives, scissors and woodworking tools. The edge produced by its leather honing wheel is equal to any I have been able to produce by any other method.

------------------
Steve Bottorff
steve@bottorff.com [URL=http://www.ameritech.net/users/knives/index.htm]www.ameritech.net/users/knives/index.htm


[This message has been edited by stevebot (edited 18 August 1999).]

[This message has been edited by stevebot (edited 23 August 1999).]
 
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