Educate me on Tanto survival blades please

[HorangiJones]

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I couldn't find a thread that addressed the questions I had. I'm new to this forum. As I understand it, a drop or clip point are preferred in a survival situation. I keep hearing they are more versatile but no one goes into specifics other than skinning. I wouldn't skin with a large blade and would do it with my Mora. Why is a large chopper considered better without a tanto point? If batoning is the task, doesn't a tanto have a more robust tip to thump on? I'm not interested in general terms. I would like to be educated on specific things you guys have experienced the tanto type tip to be deficient in. I'm also not interested in what something was "originally designed" for arguments either. We won our independence with rifles "originally designed" to kill animals that were far superior to the British rifles that were "originally designed" to kill humans.

 

[Thomas Linton]

A plain, drop, warncliffe, spear, or even clip point can have a stout point. If they have a fine point, it's because that was the intent.

The American Tanto is a relatively new pattern that is optimized for stabbing. It has no curve for cutting like the traditional tanto or other classic American outdoor patterns like the Marble's Ideal or Woodcraft.

(The Revolution was won by people in ranks firing muskets - smooth-bore. Rifles had their place and their advantages, but rifle units were occasionally massacred due to their much slower rate of fire and lack of bayonets. Hard to find a war won by snipers.)

 

[HorangiJones]

A plain, drop, warncliffe, spear, or even clip point can have a stout point. If they have a fine point, it's because that was the intent.

The American Tanto is a relatively new pattern that is optimized for stabbing. It has no curve for cutting like the traditional tanto or other classic American outdoor patterns like the Marble's Ideal or Woodcraft.

(The Revolution was won by people in ranks firing muskets - smooth-bore. Rifles had their place and their advantages, but rifle units were occasionally massacred due to their much slower rate of fire and lack of bayonets. Hard to find a war won by snipers.)

I have seen new tanto's with curves though. I do wood working as a hobby and have a chisel to do some fine work so I kind of like the secondary edge for that stuff. I almost purchased the becker tac tool but I hate hate hate sharpening serrations.

As for the revolution, I do remember specifically, from my American history class, that there's an American long rifle (Kentucky rifle) and that the British were issued rifles as well. They did have ranks while Americans had guerrilla tactics. I'm not sure what the French used when helping us.

I appreciate the input though. What kinds of tasks do you find limiting with the tanto points you have used?

 

[Thomas Linton]

I have seen new tanto's with curves though. I do wood working as a hobby and have a chisel to do some fine work so I kind of like the secondary edge for that stuff. I almost purchased the becker tac tool but I hate hate hate sharpening serrations.

As for the revolution, I do remember specifically, from my American history class, that there's an American long rifle (Kentucky rifle) and that the British were issued rifles as well. They did have ranks while Americans had guerrilla tactics. I'm not sure what the French used when helping us.

I appreciate the input though. What kinds of tasks do you find limiting with the tanto points you have used?

I have seen new tanto's with curves though. I do wood working as a hobby and have a chisel to do some fine work so I kind of like the secondary edge for that stuff. I almost purchased the becker tac tool but I hate hate hate sharpening serrations.

As for the revolution, I do remember specifically, from my American history class, that there's an American long rifle (Kentucky rifle) and that the British were issued rifles as well. They did have ranks while Americans had guerrilla tactics. I'm not sure what the French used when helping us.

I appreciate the input though. What kinds of tasks do you find limiting with the tanto points you have used?

Lacking curve, the American tanto (distinguished from the classic Japanese pattern) is poor at skinning. Intended as a stabbing weapon, many have excessively thick edges, but that is not inherent in a chisel point. I do own a Japanese-made American Tanto that has shallow hollow grinds on its two edges. While not a great skinner, it is fine at most other outdoor tasks.


Forget the legends. Our great victories were won by men in ranks firing volleys from muskets as they were taught by European instructors. Rifles of the time were effectively 200 yard weapons, and the musket more like a 75 yard weapon. But the musket fired 3-4x as rapidly. The tight fit between the rifle ball and rifling made loading rifles slower and slower as they were fired and the barrels fouled. At some point, the rifle could not be loaded until the barrel had been washed out. Further, their greater range was often useless in the smoke-clouded battlefield. When conventional infantry emerged from those banks of smoke - with bayonets, the rifleman was either a swift runner or dead. Out of experience, rather than theory, the most famous rifle unit of the Revolution, Morgan's Rifles, was disbanded in 1779. Thereafter, the vast bulk of riflemen enlisted in the colonial forces were stationed on the frontier where they did not have the disadvantage of facing regular troops.

Mawhood ordered his light troops to delay Mercer, while he brought up the other detachments. Mercer was walking through William Clark's orchard when the British light troops appeared. The British light troops' volley went high which gave time for Mercer to wheel his troops around into battle line. Mercer's troops advanced, pushing back the British light troops. The Americans took up a position behind a fence at the upper end of the orchard. However, Mawhood had brought up his troops and his artillery. The American gunners opened fire first and for about ten minutes, the outnumbered American infantry exchanged fire with the British. However, many of the Americans had rifles which took longer to load than muskets. Mawhood ordered a bayonet charge and because many of the Americans had rifles, which could not be equipped with bayonets, they were overrun. Both of the American's cannons were captured, and the British turned them on the fleeing troops. Mercer was surrounded by British soldiers and they shouted at him "Surrender you damn rebel!". Declining to ask for quarter, Mercer chose to resist instead. The British, thinking they had caught Washington, bayoneted him, and then left him for dead. Mercer's second in command, Colonel John Haslet, was shot through the head and killed.

Then Washington arrived with the American line regiments.



(Painting omits the thick smoke commented on by almost all witnesses who wrote of the battle.)

 

[HorangiJones]

Thanks for the info. I was trying to decide if I was going to try and get a traditional shaped chopper for bushcraft while doing some backpacking this spring break. I'll just go with what I got since I'm taking a couple mora's with me also.

 

[neeman]

Thomas

For interest
Read about how the 95th Rifle Regiment developed in the Peninsula War and how Wellington used them

 

[22-rimfire]

I tend not to acquire knives with tanto blades since I believe they are primarily designed for stabbing which I have little need for. The bowie design was also designed for stabbing and fighting. I think it is about personal preference. Use the tanto if you like it.

I believe that the tanto design in the US is a more of a fad. But I don't have practical experience using a tanto blade in the woods to provide much imput. I mostly just don't like the design except on Japanese blades. It is entirely possible that it was easier to re-grind/re-shape the point into a tanto point on a broken blade (fighting where blades might be damaged more frequently) versus forming a more traditional shape such as commonly used.

Added: The strength of the point and the flexibility of the design is probably why the bushlore spear point design was developed.

 

[steeljunky154]

The reason that most people do not use tantos as a survival knife is that you kneed to do everything with one knife in a survival situation. On the drop point and clip point designs they have a belly which is useful for chopping because it couses a weight forward design

 

[jdk1]

I haven't used a fixed blade tanto as an outdoors knife, but carried a CS tanto Voyager for years as EDC in a job which was totally outdoors in rugged terrain. I found the tanto undesirable for two reasons: the tip was too thick to use in removing splinters and thorns, which I did a lot, and the anglular belly was right where I needed a smooth cutting surface. It was like a dull point where I needed it least.

For choppers, I can only say I really appreciate a smoothly curved belly. That sweet spot is where the work is done and I imagine a tanto's angle would again interfere with work. You could also find yourself with only that large blade and need to perform tasks where that pointy part would again be in the way. CS treid to get around this with the Outdoorsman, which was a tanto with a belly. Neat looking blade and maybe useful. I've never tried one.

Since were talking war tactics (off subject , but interesting), I've finished quite a few books on WWII lately and have totally realized that wars are won with cannons, planes, and ships Even the biggest, baddest, battle rifle is a self-defense/harrassing weapon at best. When it hits the fan, even small altercations are won by machine guns and exploding ordinance! That's why RPGs are so popular in most of the world. It seems a jungle fighter may be better served by a bucket of grenades than a firearm. Or better yet, air support and a good radio. Back to knives It's also a but harder to sharpen a tanto. Good luck.

 

[Thomas Linton]

The reason that most people do not use tantos as a survival knife is that you kneed to do everything with one knife in a survival situation. On the drop point and clip point designs they have a belly which is useful for chopping because it couses a weight forward design

Weight forward is a product of putting weight forward, as with thickness or breadth of the blade. That could be done with the American tanto. Clipping away part of what would be there does not, in and of itself, put weight forward.

 

[HorangiJones]

The point about it becoming your only knife makes a lot of sense and I appreciate all the input. Jdk1, your point about thorns and such was great but can I ask what it excelled at that convinced you to make the tanto point your edc?

 

[jdk1]

The point about it becoming your only knife makes a lot of sense and I appreciate all the input. Jdk1, your point about thorns and such was great but can I ask what it excelled at that convinced you to make the tanto point your edc?

It started being my EDC in the days before the internet and I didn't know much about knives It cut when needed and, as I was in law enforcement, it seemed it would work if pressed into self defense duty. The main reason I carried it was that I got it for a song and it seemed very tough. The only thing I found it to truly excel at was cutting samples from marijuana bundles. The tanto point was easy to drive into the hard packed bricks and pry out chunks without fear of it breaking. That's about it. For everything else I learned a clip or drop point worked much better. Even cutting tape on boxes seems easier with a drop point. During long quiet streches I would whittle and found the tanto sucked so bad at this simple task that I started carrying a CS twistmaster clip point for whittling. A tanto anything would be my personal last choice for outdoor use. For prying a trailer house door open it would be my first choice, but I now have an ESEE 5 or HEST for that stuff. A tanto is just one step away from the squared-off Becker tac-tool to me. Hope that helps.

 

[Hesparus]

Master Smith Murray Carter had the following to say about the American tanto in his latest book, "101 knife designs (practical knives for daily use)":

“…[American] tanto points are useless…..Despite what you have been told, tanto points do not make a point any stronger for piercing. Any strength that is in the point comes from the thickness of the metal right behind the tip of the blade, and is not dependent on the blade profile. What you have not been told by the tanto point salesman though, is that the very same tanto point will impede good piercing because of the extra drag produced by the protrusion of the square point…A tanto point blade further limits the slicing ability by dividing a short blade into two smaller blades, divided by an angle…What’s more, because the second angled tanto edge sticks out from the blade profile, in use it is the first part to go dull.”

- Chris

 

[HorangiJones]

Hey Hesparus, wouldn't the strength behind the point be better for beating on when batoning?

 

[Rhinoknives1]

My take on the Americanized Tanto tip blade is that its great for opening boxes and chipping paint off the side of a building. Other than that I have yet to see any reason for it other than the Tacticool look and as mentioned,
Stabbing. Yet I don't see how it would stab any better that a clip, swedge or harpoon tipped blade?

As another poster mentioned the strength of a Tanto tip is due to the thickness and if a customer wants a thick strong tip that can be done on any of the three I mentioned and a drop point as well, the problem here being that it would defeat the purpose of a Drop point Hunter knife.

If there are any service men or others that know why a Tanto tip actually works better for stabbing? Than the three styles mentioned or the one I think best, A Spear point,
please do tell?

 

[Hesparus]

It would be negligibly than a drop point of essentially the same shape.

- Chris

 

[HorangiJones]

Well shoot. Those are great reasons. I was hoping to take a recently purchased cold steel Warcraft tanto on a camping trip planned for March. I guess I'll just wait for some GSO knives to become available.

 

[neeman]

A Puukko blade has as strong a tip as a Tanto
You get the full width of the blade untill it comes to a point

I have one Tanto folder
The advantages of the tanto is there are two straight sections that are very easy to sharpen
And because the tip is a flat section it is easier to sharpen than a puukko
I find the vee apex of the two sections very useful
I use it for scoring flat surfaces that I cannot do comfortablely with anything else except a sheepsfoot/wharnie

I would not want a tanto in a longer fixed blade

 

[Thomas Linton]

A Puukko blade has as strong a tip as a Tanto
You get the full width of the blade untill it comes to a point

I have one Tanto folder
The advantages of the tanto is there are two straight sections that are very easy to sharpen
And because the tip is a flat section it is easier to sharpen than a puukko
I find the vee apex of the two sections very useful
I use it for scoring flat surfaces that I cannot do comfortablely with anything else except a sheepsfoot/wharnie

I would not want a tanto in a longer fixed blade

A given puukko MAY have a stronger tip that a given American tanto - or not. There is nothing inherent about the puukko or the American tanto that dictates how strong the point is. That the American tanto typically has a stronger point that the typical puukko is merely a reflection of choices made by the makers. Equally, the typical puukko is much more useful in doing fine work that the typical American tanto.

 

[neeman]

yes ...true