Effect of laminated blade after multiple quenching?

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djomla

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I recently saw blade seminar '07 on YouTube where Mr. Fowler spoke about the effects of multiple quenching the blade. There he says something about the effect on blade after each quenching, supposedly hardened part of blade moves just above the oil level each time higher and taking on pyramidal shape, which gives something like laminated blade but without lamination..

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Can someone explain this a little more detailed?
 
He'd be better off asking Mete or another real metallurgist since Fowler has, time and again, both failed to document any scientific data for his claims--mostly instead referring to nonscholarly outdated materials (such as claiming buffing causes traverse stresses, and then cites a 1924 manual on air plane props), OR been called out for flatly claiming to have tests done, but refusing to name the group, their data, or their findings, e.g. making up resources to back his claims.

No such factor as Fowler claimed in that vid makes sense since, with each thermal cycle simply puts the grain lattice through the same process--as one noted expert has stated time and again, things like triple quenching are simply silly--what was wrong the first time? If you have a controlled environment for heating to harden, you should be able to put the carbon into solution the first time and, if held at a consistent temp and soaked, able to go a lot farther than simply forcing that kinda strain on the steel without such risks as alloy banding.
 
Djolma: you are essentially correct. The documentation will soon be in print in a technical journal, maybe by October. No just Rex and I any longer, but a graduate metallurgist who has documented what we have been saying, but will be further expanded in his graduate studies. It will come through the South Dakota School of Metallurgical Engineering. Will post up the site for his report when it comes out.

Like Stacey suggested, ask me on my form and I will explain it in depth.
 
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Ed Fowler said:
Djolma: you are essentially correct. The documentation will soon be in print in a technical journal, maybe by October. No just Rex and I any longer, but a graduate metallurgist who has documented what we have been saying, but will be further expanded in his graduate studies. It will come through the South Dakota School of Metallurgical Engineering. Will post up the site for his report when it comes out.

Like Stacey suggested, ask me on my form and I will explain it in depth.
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Thank you for answering! I hope that the article will be published as soon as possible, I'm very interested .. :)
 
A master bladesmith IS a real metallurgist. A degree is not the only definition of a scholar.

And some metals, such as certain austenitic ferrous alloys, are annealed by solution heat treating followed by quench. Hadfield steels start out austenitic, and harden into martensite through work hardening - impact or abrasion increases their hardness and toughness, much like silver or other soft metals. The alloys are around 10% manganese. Metallurgy is complex and often contradictory, and many steels have complex and strange heat treatments, newer tool steels and alloys spring to mind.
 
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Before this goes any farther, Ed B was reprimanded and an apology ( from me) was sent to Ed Fowler. This has been taken care of.

Not sure what austentitic steels have to do with triple quenching, but your point is taken that no one answer will serve all questions when talking about steel.

I fully agree that well documented information reflects positively on the argument, and insults reflect poorly on the arguer.
 
Austenitic steels have no relation to triple quench. Just an example of a ferrous alloy that does not follow the rules. My apologies, sir. Civil discussion is important to me, emotions obscure debate that leads to the truth.
 
Matt River said:
A master bladesmith IS a real metallurgist. A degree is not the only definition of a scholar.

And some metals, such as certain austenitic ferrous alloys, are annealed by solution heat treating followed by quench. Hadfield steels start out austenitic, and harden into martensite through work hardening - impact or abrasion increases their hardness and toughness, much like silver or other soft metals. The alloys are around 10% manganese. Metallurgy is complex and often contradictory, and many steels have complex and strange heat treatments, newer tool steels and alloys spring to mind.
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really?
 
I let that pass Shep, but agree with you.

I know several master bladesmiths that have absolutely no metallurgical knowledge.... and will tell you that. They may know how to make a blade any way they want, but trying to understand structural phases and conversions makes their head hurt.
I also know several metallurgists that can tell you more about what happens during HT than your mind can absorb..... but can't bend a paper clip without injuring themselves.

The ones that are well accomplished at both used to be very rare, but with modern bladesmithing and the education process many of us encourage, more and more makers have an understanding of what is happening during HT.

Often someone uses an old explanation, or their idea of what happens, to explain a HT process. The metallurgist, especially one who does not make knives, may say he is wrong. The maker says he gets the desired result. The truth is both are right.
The smith makes a good knife using his established process. He may explain it wrong, but the result are right.
The metallurgist may see where the explanation is wrong, but has no experience in the process that was used to get the results in the finished knife.

Before Rick chimes in, yes I know that this has been dealt with before- "Hey, you got peanut butter on my chocolate - No you got chocolate in my peanut butter :)
 
This might get me in trouble, but...Here it goes. First off, triple quenching has ZERO similarities to a laminated blade...ZERO. I know the triple quenching thing has been discussed to death, and there are numerous threads where both sides have went at it over and over again. I do however think it is wrong for you to reprimand Ed B for calling a spade a spade. And why would you issue an apology to Ed F? He has thick skin, and has proven it time and time again. I mean no disrespect to you Stacy, as you know i hold you in high regard, But i think apologizing on behalf of someone else might make people think you are kissing up to Ed.
 
Mike, I understand where you are coming from, but in this case there is more to it than was printed on the thread.

The apology was for Mr. Fowler being attacked in a thread where he had not posted a single word. I am moderator, and that type of conduct is not for Shop Talk. A moderator, it is my task to try and keep these things from re-occurring.

That said, it has been made clear that personal attacks are not to be tolerated. The Ed Fowler metallurgy horse has been beat to death, and we don't need to try and make a zombie horse out of him. Ed has said that when he has the info he will post a link to it. Until then, we should all try and keep civility as our best rule on the subject. That is why I suggested the OP contact Ed Fowler directly, which he did.

This thread has no further constructive use, so I think closing it would be best.
 
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