Electric motor and VFD controller

Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
4
First off, let me thank all of you guys for the invaluable information you share. I have been lurking for a few months now and think that I have done due diligence and read all required sticky reading and research. I am in the process of building a KMG clone, and came across this deal on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTOR-VFD-P...-MOTOR-WITH-2HP-230V-TECO-DRIVE-/121581503355. And this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-HP-3600-R...FRAME-3-PHASE-MOTOR-NEW-SURPLUS-/360762981118.
1. Does anybody have experience with or know if this brand would be worth it?
2. I know the VFD controller is not NEMA4, but could it be mounted inside of a shielded setup, i.e. a electrical panel box to protect it. Or does it rely on air circulation for cooling?
3. Should I just ignore this VFD and go for the KBAC-27d?
Being on a fixed income, every penny gets counted, but if this is one of those too good to be true then I will pass. But if there is the possibility it would be a good setup I would appreciate any feed back.
 
I wish I had that VFD, a knob would be nice. I can't get the knob to work on mine and pushing the button is painfully slow. It doesn't look like a tremendous deal, but it looks like it will work. I believe the fan inside the VFD blows upward, so I just put a cardboard cover over the top of mine to prevent any dust from falling in while it's turned off. I get a tremendous amount of dust in my shop and the inside of my VFD is nice and clean. I've got a Teco VFD and haven't had any problems, other than the knob I tried to install.
 
Realistically, you are better off going for the KBAC. I'll try to explain why I think this so that you can see whether my reasoning is applicable to your situation.

If you need to ask the question, it seems fair to assume that you do not currently have the knowledge/skill/experience to be comfortable doing it yourself. As with most things, doing it yourself will help to provide the knowledge/skill/experience, but you need to weigh up whether you are better off spending the time on this, or using your grinder and developing your grinding skills. Only you can decide.

I have bought cheap drives and mounted them in IP66 panels (the European equivalent of NEMA4 ingress protection) with a remote control box for start, stop, fwd/rev and speed control. The first few IP66 panels came for free and there was a saving over buying IP66/NEMA4 drives. I've done a few more since and, with the cost of the panel, there is no noticeable cost difference between my setup and the factory one.

In its favour, "my" solution has the remote control box on a 3M/10' long lead and has a 3-phase socket so that I can plug in any one of several machines and run them using the remote control box.
Also, if I fry a drive, it'll only be a cheap one and the rest of it will be reusable.
Some of the drives I have are "Sensorless Vector" drives. These can run motors smoothly at lower speeds than V/Hz drives and this allows me to run 2-pole motors (3600 RPM at 60 Hz) at very low speeds. All of the NEMA4 drives I have seen have been V/Hz drives. All the V/Hz drives I have used have been fine running down to about 10 Hz, but start to feel "coggy" when taken much lower. 10 Hz on a 2-pole motor is around 600 RPM. I prefer to run 4-pole motors (1800 RPM at 60 Hz) whenever possible. 10 Hz on a 4-pole motor is about 300 RPM. I run the 4-pole motors to 120 Hz maximum for around 3600 RPM.
I have a near-unlimited supply of 3 HP, 2-pole motors for free, so the SV drive is useful to me.

Against this must be balanced the greatly increased size: as you have surmised, the drive itself is air-cooled. There needs to be space inside the enclosure to allow air circulation to cool the drive. There also needs to be enough surface area for the heat generated inside the enclosure to be transferred through the enclosure walls to the outside air. It's not too much of a problem in North-West England, where I don't really need to consider ambient temperatures much above 70 degF: it does get warmer than this, but infrequently enough that I'll probably be out enjoying the nice weather instead of in my (hobby) workshop. I use either 12"H x 12"W X 8"D or 16"H x 12"W x 8"D steel enclosures for 3 HP drives. The enclosures are steel because GRP or polycarbonate would have poorer heat transfer, and have glass front panels so that the drive display can be seen.
Unless you have A/C in the shop, you are likely to need bigger enclosures in warmer climates.
The big enclosure needs to be screwed to the wall, preferably with the display visible from the machine it runs.
Putting the drive in the enclosure means you have no access to the front control panel and must therefore arrange to control it some other way.
The remote control boxes I have built for this are fitted with industrial pushbuttons for start and stop, a speed control potentiometer and a keyed forward/reverse switch. The Start button is flush with its bezel and must be pressed with a finger (or a stick). The stop button is projecting so that it will stop the drive even if it is slapped or flailed at wildly. The keyed Fwd/Rev switch has the key removable only in the fwd position and can be removed if it is running a machine that cannot safely be reversed.
The speed control potentiometer is generally whatever I can get that provides good quality at reasonable cost. Mostly I have used Bourns or Vishay 10-turn pots and knobs bought off ebay, but I've salvaged a couple of industrial single-turn pots, badged AutomationDirect, that match the industrial pushbuttons and they have spoiled me; using 10-turn pots is now just too much faffing about.

The way I have done it uses all industrial parts, engineered to standards that mean all I have to do is put them together competently in order to be sure the dust and water protection will be adequate. Cost is high but risk is low.

There are plenty of guys on the forum who have put together some means of protecting their drives from grinding dust without spending very much at all. One of the ways to reduce costs is to use an enclosure with a fan that provides a flow of filtered air through the enclosure. This deals with the heat transfer issues at a stroke, freeing the way for much cheaper boxes. If you engineer your own system like this, you are carrying the risk in exchange for lower cost. You need to have a pretty good grasp of the issues and this takes us back to paragraph 2.
 
In the long run I think everyone would be glad that they bought the KBAC. I now have three of them on my equipment and they are trouble free and reliable. Shop hard and you will find a good price. This is not the place to save money in my opinion. Larry
 
Thank to you guys for your input. You have some valid points and some good information. Timgunn1962, what you are describing is similar to what I had in mind. My ability to accomplish goals far surpasses my knowledge in quit a few areas, but I do possess the ability to acquire the knowledge to accomplish my goals. Therefore the questions. Again, thank you for your input.
 
If you study the KBAC literature closely, you can start figuring out what control board, jumpers, optional items such as reversible switches etc. make up a complete control system. Then, just sit back and be patient watching eBay offers. You can find entire control boxes, to the individual boards at remarkable prices if you are informed and patient enough. I've bought all three of mine at less then $125 each.

Good luck.

Mike L.
 
Here is a decent source for a 3600 RPM, 3 ph, 2 hp, TEFC motor for $127 shipped. I've used one for a while and it seems just find. http://tinyurl.com/p38fnyf

I've been using a NEMA 1 VFD (Chinese version for $120 something shipped) that's been work just fine with good filters over the air inlets to prevent dust from entering. "IF" you can find the KBAC NEMA 4 for $125 to $150 shipped, that would be my recommendation for sure.

I've got the TECO VFD on my lathe for a couple yrs and it works real good - just turn knob for speed desired. VFD is mounted on back wall so dust isn't much of a problem there.

Ken H>
 
Last edited:
You will need a Phase converter to run on 110/220 ac current
3600 is too fast imo dangerous
Email sent
 
The VFD's referred to act as the phase converter, so 3 phase isn't an issue. 3 ph is by far the best way to get variable speed motor. It's not the rpm of motor that's of a concern, but the belt speed. With VFD and direct drive, using a 4" drive wheel, 100% speed is around 4,000 SFPM, and you can slow down to below 700 SFPM making it really nice for fine work.

Ken H
 
If you use a motor plated for 1800 RPM, you can run it to 120 Hz and still get that 3600 RPM, but you'll be able to run it down to 300 RPM (10 Hz) on a V/Hz VFD (and even lower on an SV VFD). The lower low speed really does seem to make a difference when sharpening.
 
I just looked at the Teco Westinghouse literature on the drive unit. It can operate in both V/Hz and SV modes. So, it seems to me that the only real issue with this drive is that it is not Nema4, and would require mounting in a filtered, vented, and preferably remote location.
 
Back
Top