Element Design.

Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
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Im getting redy to order heat treat oven parts. first does anyone know of a cheep place to get cheep fire bricks. now i have been crunching numbers it seames like all day. im bulding a 4" wide by 4.5 tall by 24" long chamber. im thinking of 15 amps on each side of the chamber at 240 volts. thats 7200 watts of pure power. is it to much. im thinking of using 16 awg A1 at .3388 ohms a foot. and winding a 1/2" coil will give me a coil 21.69" long that will be stretched to 50", is that enought stretch? am i ok?
 
check it out @ your local pottery and ceramics shops. Should be around $3 per brick, for K2300 type. You can always negotiate for a better price. Shipping these is tricky as they
are way too fragile
 
JT. I got my elements off ebay, Think they were 16 gauge. Amps sounds about right. I made them each element go from back to front and back, one on each side, Same size chamber. Works great. 1500 in about 12 min. I got my bricks from an old pottery kiln. I did put a layer of Kaowool behind the brick. to insulate more and give the bricks a way to expand a bit. Still waiting on quote for shipping on steel for my anvil. zip code 98273. Will Paypal upon reciept. Jim
 
do the bricks expand very much. should i cement the bricks together. man the 24" paragon is onley 1800 watts and mine will be 7200 watts. hay thats 4 times more heating power. its pluging into my stove outlet so i have 40 amps to play with. if i wrap the outside of the brick shell with fiber blank how do you keep everything from shifting when moved.
 
Jt. I took some 1/8" ss welding rod and cut it to lengths about that of a couple bricks on edge. Then I took one a bit longer and put it in my drill. Then I drilled a couple holes tru each of the positioned bricks and pinned then together with the rods. I did this in the outside 1/3 of the bricks. Much heat should never get to these rods and they hold everything in place. My bricks were 9" long so I spanned the top with them and they were a bit short on the outsides to make the chamber wider. Drilled and pinned those at an angle.
 
ok after drawing it up im going with a 5"x5"x22.5" chamber. that way every thing locks togather using 9"x3"x4.5" bricks. then around the outside im going to use 1" thick insboard on the sides, top, bottom, front, back. then the steel around that.
 
By the way. I was thinking about mu set up Here is some element stuff. If you run 2 elements in series (one end of each element ties to the other) on the 220 at 15 amps you will have this 110v x 15a = 1650 per element. Total of 3300w. As 1/2 the voltage will drop across each element. I ran 2 elements in series at I think 17 amps. If you run both ends of each element tied together and to the 220 you would need to make the elements twice as long to only use 15 amps per element. They would be way to long. I just fit mine in using one long loop per element and one element on each side. The coils were not very far apart. You can not crowd the spirals tp much or have them touch. If you want more power you need to go to 14 gauge wire and figure out how much to use to. If you put to much on the wire it will burn out way faster. Without 4 elements you are not going to beat the 3300w with 16 gauge and keep wire in it. If you used 2 normal length elements of 16 at 220 you would actually hit 60 amps and 13200 watts till it burned out. If I ever change out my elements I am going to go with size 14 wire. But, not to much more amp3rage. Might kick it up over 20 amps a bit, but, 1500 in 12 minutes is plenty fast. I am going to do some D2 soon so I will know how fast to 1850. I will mostly go with heavier wire to get longivety.

By the way. I put my connections to the elements in the rear. I drilled 3 holes thru the bricks in line with 3 larger holes in the steel housing. then I mounted a piece of insulation board from an old transformer an inch or so away from the steel housing. It had 3 holes that matched those in the bricks. I then ran pieces of 5/16 stainless allthread thru the holes and had a nut on both sides of the insulation board with an inch sticking free to the outside. Each piece of all thread stuck thru the oven and tru the bricks where I had a ss washer and 2 nuts against each other. I then connected my elements to these "terminals posts" with a third nut and 2 washers. The center post had both elements and each outside post had the other end of one element. On the outside board I connected on leg of the 220 to each outside post. I covered this with a metal junction box I drilled a bunch of holes in to let any heat out. I grounded the outside of the oven box by the way. I mounted my pid and SSR in another junction box and mounted it on stilts about 2" above the top of the oven. The pid face sticks out of the box for reading and setting. I also mounted a momentary on switch (push switch) on the box and when the door is closed a adjustable bolt heat presses the switch. This switch is on one of the wires that goes from the pid to turn on the SSR. That way when the door is opened it cuts power to the elements so if I hit one with a piece of steel I am not shorting out myself, the steel or the element. I made the lid of my oven removable so that if my elements burn out I can remove it, the Koawool, top bricks and replace the elements. Trying to do that thru a 4.5" x 4.5" hole 24" deep didn't seem like it would be a good job
 
PS. I pinned my elements into the grooves in the bricks with peices of kanthol wire bent into a U. One of those every few inches helps hold it place. That was how the element was held in place in the ceramics kiln I had to start with. If you need some extra wire for pins I saved the old element from the kiln I salvage the brick from. Let me know and I will send you some.
 
ok my math :D. 16 AWG wire is .051" DI and .3388 ohms a foot. i want 15 amps so, 240v/15a = 16 ohms. then to get total wire length, 16 ohms/.3388 = 47.2255 Feet. now winding a 1/2" coil gives, (.5-.051) x pie(3.14) = 1.41 inches in each loop. so, 1"/.051= 19.6078 wraps in each inch. thats, 19.6078 x 1.41 = 27.658 inches of wire used to wrap 1 inch long coil. now, 47.2255 feet of wire = 566.7 inches. thats, 566.7 / 27.658 = 20.49 inch long coil. now there will be one coil on each side connected in parallel.
 
ok to fig resistance. what we have is 2 16 ohm resistors connected in parallel. to calulate total resistance, R total = 1/((1/R1)+(1/R2)), thats 1/((1/16)+(1/16)) = 8 ohms total. now to get amps, 240volts / 8 ohms = 30 amps. now total watts, 240 volts x 30 amps = 7200 watts o dady im good.
 
I buy my fire bricks at a local fire place store. I get 9" bricks for $2 each. I also buy my refractory cement there. if that doesn't work call your local brick mason and they'll send you in the right direction.
 
got a lead, its a brick place and thay have a pallet of fulls and splits. fulls are 9"x3"x4.5" and thay want 1.44 each. she told me there used to reline fireplaces and there very light like pumice. and there a light peach color. am i good to go.
 
JT surely knows a bargain when he sees one ! :) And he's one lucky cat too !

JT - get the the black high-temp mortar in caulk tubes at your local Lowes/HD.
One tube will do the work, you barely need any of it to hold the bricks.
 
Jt I got As in electronic. Thats not the problem. I never did the math on mine though. I bought my elements. They were made for 16 amps per elememt on 110v. They would have run 32 amps per element on 220 and burnt out. I think your math is correct. I don't think 16 gauge is designed to run that much current. I was wrong about the one part. But, I am pretty sure you wire isn't going to last long at 30 amps. Go with heavier wire. Jim
 
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