Elk Ridge Knives and 440C?

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pinnah

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Shove the following into your favorite search engine
"Elk Ridge Knives 440C"

A lot of retailers list many Elk Ridge knives as using unqualified 440 stainless, which presumably means 440A. But several list knives as using 440c.

Can this be true? At these low price points?

I searched the forums a d found a discussion in the general forum that never reached a conclusion.

Anybody know of a good sponsoring retailer who carries them and who might be able to shed some light?
 
I'd go with the majority opinion, "440" without "C".

The few that said "440C" did not look particularly trustworthy.
 
I'm convinced that many 'inexpensive' knives advertised as 440A/C probably aren't or, at best, may be some generic 'equivalent' (loosely) of it. The '440' label has been slapped on so many cheap knives, over several decades, that it's become almost meaningless to me. A handful of well-regarded manufacturers do a better job at documenting and explicitly making clear their use of & expertise with 440C (Buck comes to mind with their older and legendary 440C blades), and have proven themselves with it. Otherwise, on 'cheap' knives espousing the '440' moniker, I just assume 'mystery steel' until it's proven otherwise. As with most steels, even 'real' 440-series steels can sometimes be sub-par if not heat-treated properly (and this is reason to worry also, with cheaper knives).

If anything, the '440' label might universally suggest high corrosion-resistance in a stainless steel, because that recipe specifies 16-18% chromium content in all 440-series steels (A/B/C). That's very high chromium, even as compared to most other stainless cutlery steels. But, the carbon content ranges between 0.7% (440A) and about 1-1.2% (440C). So, there's potentially a big difference in edge-holding and wear-resistance, depending on which steel is implied by '440' only.

The original AISI ("American Iron and Steel Institute") steel specs, for 440-series and so many others, were created to document the makeup of steels produced in the U.S.A. by American manufacturers. So, in the most rigid sense, any knife or tool made with steel produced elsewhere (outside the U.S.) can't actually claim the real '440C' name (or whatever other AISI recipe), even if they've copied it to the letter. In that sense, the name only implies a general guideline about what the steel is made of, but obviously can't guarantee it.


David
 
Hmmmm..... I have a couple of Boker knives that are marked as 440C. During my most sweaty nasty months, these are the only knives that don't show at least a spec of rust in my pockets after a few days work. It polished up great and holds a nice edge. It sure reminds me of my Buck knife with a 440c blade.

So are you guys saying that Boker 440C may not be as advertised? Any backup information I could read? I know that not all is as advertised with some of the lesser known or less reliable manufacturers, especially from off shore sources, but I haven't read anywhere that Boker (particularly Boker... not interested in the gas station knives with 440C stamped on them) was engaged in deceptive business practices. I know that the Bokers I have are made in the Pacific Rim, but that doesn't mean (at least to me!) that they are doing something they shouldn't be doing.

Not looking for a detailed discussion steel, performance theory, steel recipes, heat treat discussions, near steel recipes, etc. I would just like to know if Boker's knives are advertised.

Robert
 
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Robert,

I actually thought of Boker, in addition to Buck, as one of the reputable brands with some real credibility, in terms of actually using 440C or at least a good representation of it. I'm not sure where they source or purchase their steel, in reality (they manufacture in at least a couple different areas of the world), but I don't worry at all about the '440C' labelling on their knives. They might even purchase 440C from U.S. sources for use in their knives. I have one or two Bokers made with it (and at least one of them actually has '440C' branded into the blade), and they're fine knives. This is why I emphasize the reputation of the maker as at least equally important, if not more so, than what's implied by the labelling of the steel.


David
 
ummm... You can buy AISI spec steel pretty much world wide if you want, just as Spyderco is able to have knives with blades made of Crucible PM alloy made in Taiwan.

But Chinese foundries work to their own specs, according to a steel engineer from Sandvik who used to post on BF. They don't work to AISI specs. If the knife is a low cost Chinese import, chances are that the steel was made in China, which means that it isn't actually AISI spec steel, even though the properties may be very similar.

On the other hand, I would guess that if the Boker were made in Germany, and Boker said that it had 440C blades, that it probably does. Although Bohler does make N695, an alloy very similar to 440C in chromium and carbon content, but having a slightly different molybdenum content.
 
David and Frank,

Thanks for the thoughtful and intelligent replies. All that both of you said makes good sense. I think this all comes down to what you guys are saying, it boils down to the manufacturer. I know there was some intentional mislabeling going on the past as one forum or another I used to read found in rudimentary tests (not a full lab analysis) that the steels on some knives from different, lesser known companies simply couldn't be what was advertised.

Worse, a few guys got hold of a Rockwell tester and checked out hardness claims versus reality. That was pretty awful, too. IIRC, in the traditional lineup, only Buck and Queen were as hard as advertised.

Boker is still quite capable of putting out a very high quality product, and I was hoping that another brand I grew up with hadn't started down the wrong road.

Robert
 
One thing that occurred to me yesterday, is when real 440C is done right, there's a BIG difference in how it sharpens up. It's noticeable on certain types of stones, most notably Arkansas stones. I remember trying to grind new bevels on an old 2-dot Buck 112 in 440C, using some old, inexpensive Arkansas stones. They'd barely scratch it, and I finally gave up and stashed the knife away in frustration. That was 20+ years ago, and when I finally dug that knife out again, I used SiC wet/dry paper to convex it. What a difference it made; the SiC is a lot more aggressive on 440C, when the natural stones couldn't touch it. That's a stark difference in contrast to 440A, which doesn't have the same high carbon content and therefore doesn't have the same abundance of very wear-resistant chromium carbides. If I were to purchase an 'inexpensive' knife labelled as 440C, and it sharpened up a little too easily on simple abrasives like natural stones, I'd be very, very suspicious of it. Or, at least very disappointed. Part of it is in how hard they make it (heat treat to decent RC), so 440C isn't worth as much if the maker doesn't use the high carbon & chromium content to advantage, for increased wear-resistance and edge-holding.


David
 
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Frank, Sal G. has stated that they buy the steel ( S30V/CPM M4(HC) ) and ship it to the vendor in Taiwan. He had found in China when he was looking to set up the Byrd line he had ordered them in 440C and was told that's what he would get. He tested the first batch and found it was what now goes by the name 8Cr13MOV which he then named. That's how 8C got it's name initially.

IMO, Knives that are sold as having 440 steel coming from mainland china likely have 7C, 8C, 9C instead of actual 440A/C spec steel. Rough Rider being one example reputed to have 440A steel. Boker may or may not have shipped in 440C for their line made in China but I tend to doubt it due to the extra cost. With the costs of doing that there would be much higher costs pricing the knives out of the range people are comfortable paying for China made knives.

If I remembered any of the details incorrectly hopefully someone will step in to correct them.

Joe
 
Joe, I have read the same issue happening with other US makers working in China. As a matter of fact, as a mfg engineer, I have had Chinese vendors substitute materials on my products and provide false certification. That said, the Chinese now make good copies of the 440 series of steel. Their rough equivalents are 7Cr17 for 440A, 8Cr17 for 440B, and 9Cr17-9Cr18Mo-11Cr17 for 440C (actually, the 9Crxx steels tread the line between 440B and 440C). And David, you are very correct as to how 440A vs 440C behave on most natural stones ~ the 440C when properly heat treated can hardly be worked on them.
 
The Mastiff said:
Frank, Sal G. has stated that they buy the steel ( S30V/CPM M4(HC) ) and ship it to the vendor in Taiwan.
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I used a poor example. My point was that it actually is possible to get realio trulio 440C in places other than the US, but that it is unlikely that a low cost knife made in China will have blades made of actual 440C.
 
Frank, Sorry if my post came across as disrespectful. I just wanted to get the point across that some do send steel to other countries and some don't for quite likely perfectly reasonable reasons. If you consider Rough Riders steel to meet 440A spec than it is as far as I'm concerned.

I know China can have steel that meets international standards for quality and composition. Some of their steels just like ours have elements in it from recycled steel, yet still meet or exceed spec.

I've heard that Taiwan however doesn't have much of it's own steel production and imports what it needs. Bringing in your own steel is a good way to insure you get exactly what you want.

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
Boker may or may not have shipped in 440C for their line made in China but I tend to doubt it due to the extra cost. With the costs of doing that there would be much higher costs pricing the knives out of the range people are comfortable paying for China made knives.
Click to expand...

Do you have any actual evidence of Boker in particular substituting steel, not delivering the blade steel they stamp on the tang?

Although a great knife steel, 440C certainly isn't considered a premium steel anymore. However, it is still plentiful as it is used widely in the manufacturing industry. And how much steel is in a pocket knife? An ounce or two? Then what would be the difference between an ounce of the 8cr series and 440C? Not much would be reflected in the price of a knife as the blade components are such a small cost on those knives. Boker could easily be following the Spyderco model mentioned above.

Inquiring minds....

Robert
 
$1-2 dollars difference in manufacturing costs for a knife that costs $6 to make is substantial increase. Think about it, you can buy a a RR folder for south of $10 shipped from an American distributor on EBay, the knife has already been through a few hands at this point. So, in China, the cost of the steel could actually be a bigger influence on final cost than a knife made in Europe or America where labor costs are much higher. Btw, I read a post once on BF from a Chinese member that works in either their steel or cutlery industry, and he said that American/European/Japanese cutlery steels cost 2-3x more there than their indigenous alloys.
 
Do you have any actual evidence of Boker in particular substituting steel, not delivering the blade steel they stamp on the tang?
Click to expand...

No evidence whatsoever.

Boker could easily be following the Spyderco model mentioned above.
Click to expand...

Of course they could be. My post above said as much. Spyderco has a premium knife line ( Gayle Bradley, Sage, Chokwe, Tuff, Etc.) made in a vendor in Taiwan without much of a steel industry on the island. Boker has an economy though nicely made line built in China with a huge steel industry that puts out very similar grades. As I state I have no insider knowledge of what Boker has done or will do. IMO though the China made 440C ( per Boker ) knife steel is not very similar acting or performing to the European/German 440C labeled blades. That is just an opinion from having a few of each lines here and doing some re profiling/thinning on both. That could be just a different heat treat though. I sure don't think I know for sure.
Joe
 
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An update.

An unsolicited catalog arrived today, advertising Elk Ridge knives as being made of "400 series stainless steel." 420J ?
 
Rough riders 440a is heat treated very well! Just saying. If it's a major brand like boker I would presume what they say the steel is just that or a properly heat treated equivalent.

For lesser known Chinese companies I don't believe a word until I get one in hand and the steel passes the sniff test lol.

I can totally believe that Chinese factories can produce properly heat treated knives though. It's just they have to pass an extra layer of pessimism before getting the ok. I wouldn't blink twice about carrying most rough rider knives.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
I think Elk Ridge is owned by Master Cutlery?
I asked about an Elk Ridge stockman a while back, to find out how their quality was.

Anyway, I don't know if it will do any good to check their website or send them an email. After all, no guarantee they will answer or tell the truth, if they do answer.

I see a lot of Elk Ridge knives for sale at the truck stops, mostly fixed blades of the "sharp finger" style, and a few lockbacks.

I gave the stockman to my then co-driver, (and current co-driver, my truck is broke, so I'm in his temporarally. Fitting, he got back in my truck while his was down.) it is serving him well, regardless of what the steel used is. The master blade is etched 440 Stainless. It holds a decent enough edge.
 
I have a couple different versions of the Camillus double Lockbacks. They are stamped 440c. Those puppies sharpened up easily on a norton india, a soft Arkansas and then a hard. After a littler stropping g, they are every bit as sharp as I can get a 1095 gec, and once sharp I can skin and breakdown two Whitetail before they give up the goat. Of course that's two blades and two deer........ they did their part keeping them thin behind the edge while having flat grinds to a perfect spine/stock thickness. They did them right.
 
Thomas Linton said:
An update.

An unsolicited catalog arrived today, advertising Elk Ridge knives as being made of "400 series stainless steel." 420J ?
Click to expand...

The term "400 series steel" includes 420J2, 420HC, 440A, B, and C. Plus a few other alloys. But the ones I specifically listed are the 400 series alloys that are normally considered suitable for cutlery.
 
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