Elmax vs. INFI?

Cobalt said:
Also, for small to medium blades it is fine on a big blade I would not consider it at all.
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That's a good point. I spec'd that knife at 6.5", and that was one of the reasons. Any bigger and I'd definitely have chosen something else (or more likely just use one of my Busse blades ;)).

Cobalt said:
here is another source


Steel-------Hardness-----Charpy C Ft. Lbs.
CPM-S90V......@Rc56..........20
CPM-S90V.....@Rc58...........19
CPM-S60V.....@Rc56...........16
CPM-S30V.....@Rc58...........28
CPM-S35VN....@58Rc...........32
CPM-154......@60Rc............30
154CM..........@Rc58...........28
440C............@Rc56...........26
440C............@Rc58...........16
420HC...........@Rc58...........24
M390............@Rc60...........22

According to the above, at Rc 58 S90v is tougher and at Rc 56 440C is tougher. S90v being equal in toughness to elmax. So I would say that 440c and elmax are very close in toughness. Which means that 440A and B will definitely be tougher.
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I think you're probably right. M390 is pretty darned close to Elmax in performance from my research (M390 was actually my first choice in steel, but we couldn't find any in the size we needed), and that chart just reinforces where Elmax sits if that's the case.

I've seen rhetoric saying that Elmax is tougher than S30V and CPM-154, but no data to back the claim. However, if the Charpy data I saw before is correct, it would put it in the range to support those claims. It could very well be like you said, the HT makes ALL the difference! We know the Busse HT certainly does!!! :thumbup:
 
I would think they are all very close in toughness.

I remember people always saying that D2 was not a tough steel and in the grand scheme of things it is not. Then Busse came out with their little Swamp Rat D2 resiprene handled blades and they proceeded to hammer on them. They posted pics of the damage and you would have thought those were the toughest knives you had ever seen. I don't know where that thread or those pics are, but it was impressive. So I do believe that with today's super HT's that some are doing, you can greatly improve the qualities of the steel above what is spec'd.
 
I remember those pics, but wow, that was awhile ago! :eek: Some say that there is no "magic" in HT, but I whole-heartedly disagree! I say it's as much art as it is science.
 
With properly heat treat ELMAX is easily the best stainless steel in the market... the CATRA test has prove that it tougher than S30V like 50% at the same hardness.

440A might be tougher than ELMAX due to the lower carbon content, higher elastic yield limit to be exactly.

But ELMAX will has significantly better compression/tension strength due to the stronger matrix (harder martensite/well distribution of fine carbide) thus ELMAX will resist deformation much better... Not to mention the greatly improve in wear resistance.
 
Two questions.

1) it appears S35VN seems to be tougher in general than Elmax, is this correct?

2) what has higher chromium content, S35VN or Elmax, basically which one offers more corrosion resistance?
 
One other question

At what thickness do Elmax and S35VN get brittle?
 
shqxk said:
With properly heat treat ELMAX is easily the best stainless steel in the market... the CATRA test has prove that it tougher than S30V like 50% at the same hardness.

440A might be tougher than ELMAX due to the lower carbon content, higher elastic yield limit to be exactly.

But ELMAX will has significantly better compression/tension strength due to the stronger matrix (harder martensite/well distribution of fine carbide) thus ELMAX will resist deformation much better... Not to mention the greatly improve in wear resistance.
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Where does catra test toughness?

I agree with you on wear resistance. 440A will deform fairly easily, but that deformation will not propagate into a crack like it will with more brittle steels and hence my point that 440a/b is better in large knives. I totally agree with elmax for small knives.

edited to add: I just went through CATRA's site and there is no toughness testing anywhere. I think that is one huge misconception. That somehow edge and wear testing translates to toughness. It does not.
 
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MikeC said:
One other question

At what thickness do Elmax and S35VN get brittle?
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I can't answer you but I can say that hardness plays a role in this as well. It is both thickness and hardness as well as steel type and overall ht that matters. Length and width also play into this because they affect the stiffness. There are a lot of factors.

For example, if you get a Scrapyard Dogfather which is Rc of around 57 throughout, you can bend it well past 90 degrees(120 degrees or more). You could never do that with any stainless knife I know of at that hardness. I have Rc 56 stainless knives and if I try to bend them they will snap. But S7 steel is supremely tough and flexible.

DogFatherTothefloor2.jpg



Knifemakers do differential HT's where the spine is softer than the edge to get their knives to flex to 90 degrees. Busse does this with SR101 or use to.
 
Cobalt said:
Where does catra test toughness?

I agree with you on wear resistance. 440A will deform fairly easily, but that deformation will not propagate into a crack like it will with more brittle steels and hence my point that 440a/b is better in large knives. I totally agree with elmax for small knives.

edited to add: I just went through CATRA's site and there is no toughness testing anywhere. I think that is one huge misconception. That somehow edge and wear testing translates to toughness. It does not.
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I mean charpy test. I agree that 440A/B will be better on large blade while Elmax is better for mid to small size.

But proper carbon steel like 5160, L6, 52100 or even 1095 will be far superior to any stainless for larger knife.
 
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