Emergency food-fat vs carbs

Yorkshire Boy said:
Fat is less efficient than carbs regarding energy.
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And if your body ran on a pure energy/efficiency model that would matter. It doesn't. Your body needs calories, but it needs them in specific ways to run right over a long period of time (days not hours). So while fat or protein might be less efficient as a pure number (calories per oz), if your body is tuned to it, it may run better overall. Balance is the key - not a magic formula of X product has more calories per oz than another. How those calories are delivered and processed matters.
 
I am not sure where someone came up with the idea that sugar is more efficient than fat. On a mass basis fat is 2X as efficient as sugar. Sugar might provide a slightly faster boost in energy as it only requires the breaking of a couple of bonds before the glucose part of sucrose can enter the blood stream. But, by that reasoning, ethanol would be the best fuel as it will enter the bloodstream directly from the stomach. Providing an almost immediate boost in energy.
 
I get the feeling this thread wasn't started with the intention of having a productive conversation, but to assert an existing opinion, based on all of the OP's responses.
 
I copied and pasted what's below from some of my notes, not verbatim from 98.6* The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive, but very close and it's the source. Excellent book that covers basic food considerations in the outdoors. There is also a lot more to it that a one-size fits all approach. Suggest you pick up the book and/or Mors Kochanski's ebook Basic Safe Travel and Boreal Survival Handbook also addresses some of this. Food for the outdoors is a deep rabbit hole...

For short-term survival (one to three days), a lack of calories is not nearly important for performance as a lack of carbohydrates. Simple sugars and carbs provide fast energy because they metabolize very quickly and are required for the body to be able to access its stored fat deposits. Examples of this include candy and bread. Longer-lasting energy is squeezed from complex carbohydrates, such as beans, pasta, and oats. And even more sustained calories are extrapolated from proteins and especially fats. Keep in mind though with the simple sugars in the long-term, if not accompanied by certain complex carbohydrates and proteins for stabilization, this quick source of energy leaves your body just as quickly. The result is the infamous sugar crash.
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" Simple sugars and carbs provide fast energy because they metabolize very quickly and are required for the body to be able to access its stored fat deposits."

I have never heard this before. My limited understanding is that fat is metabolized through a process called lipolysis. Excess glucose is stored as fat. Excess protein is stored as fat. But if the energy is needed quickly, fat does not need to convert directly to glucose for the process to begin (I don't know if it happens at the cellular level though). However, hydrolysis is an important step in the process so water is important.
 
One thing that isn't often mentioned, your brain needs protein. It doesn't run on carbs or fat. So while your body will be fine, your brain is going to be eating your body to keep going, and the one tool you need to be working is the mush in your skull.

you need water to to DIGEST protein, but most of the starvation research is either incomplete or flawed, so its hard to say all of whats actually going on as far as the later stages. We know the basics, and you start using your own bodies fat first, and its used when ketosis starts (leading to so called "rabbit starvation") But a lot of whats going on is based on what you eat normally, and epigenetics. For the 72 hour situation, you just want calories. any and all, and a mix is best, but take what you can get. nutrient content doesn't usually matter for a while, its pretty hard to actually get a deficiency if you start out healthy.

As for that comment about needing carbs to burn fat, I don't see how that can be true, as in starvation the body burns off the fat pretty quick.

From my personal experience:
Sugar- quick spike, and crash, can start a feedback loop of bigger highs, and harder crashes over a surprisingly short period of time.
Complex carbs - same as sugar just longer rise and fall, but if all you have is carbs, things get just as bad, just slightly slower
Protein- long burn - not necessarily "energy" but keeps hunger off longer, and keeps muscles and brain working longer.
Fat- longest burn, best for keeping warm. Fat calories seem better at keeping sustained heat in cooler conditions.

If I had to pick just one for a 72 hour stretch, I would pick protein provided water was sufficient.
 
Yorkshire Boy said:
Fat is less efficient than carbs regarding energy.
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What? How?

From an energy density point of view FAT IS KING as others have mentioned already. If the idea is to have as much energy as possible for a given weight then olive oil/ peanut butter is hard to beat. Spam is 70% fat if I remember correct from that other thread.

From a nutritional standpoint sugar gives you carbohydrates.... but it is not the only kind of carbohydrate out there. Sugar is a simple carbohydrate. Given the choice I would lean towards loading up on complex carbohydrates since they release energy slower into your body.

Regardless your body needs fats, carbohydrates and proteins (among other things like water, vitamins and minerals). You can't get by without all of them. Even if you can get by on a monotonous diet for a few days you will be miserable doing so. The idea of planning to only utilize one source of energy confuses me... :barf:




Disclaimer I am not a nutritionist.
 
Meat or protein is like oak firewood and carbs is like pitchy pine fueling the body. Both serve a valuable purpose but have two different jobs. Now with that said I'm throwing some more oak on my reflective fire and rolling over and relegating back to lurking.
 
When I was a child it was still de rigueur to load up on sugar. It was a legacy leftover from ghastly substances like Kendal Mint Cake. In fact, I don't think one would have been considered a well prepared hill walker unless they had hobnailed boots, a wool pullover, a bobble hat, and a bar or two of Kendal Mint Cake. Then glucose tablets came along. I still recall my father with some fondness cramming a couple of packets of Dextrasol into me just prior to a fight.

Subsequently all that has fell into disrepute, not least because of the sugar crash aspect. I don't dig on sports science but I suspect those folks would encourage one to load up on pasta and bananas rather than just sugar.

I'll also mention again here that protracted expeditions to cold places frequently make extensive use of suet. It's amazing what you can wind grated suet into without really noticing it's there. Obviously its not a great idea to keep doing it under normal circumstances, but in a situation where you must take on a hell of a lot of fuel day after day I'd far sooner this route than some processed meat muck from a can. Look up suet + expedition.

For more mundane stuff we do I will always have a home for a Marathon bar, and whatever Tarzan / Cereal bars I make. Even if some of them aren't a bazillion miles away from the blocks of stuff one makes to stick out for the birds in winter.
 
When Robert Peary went to the north pole, his team began craving fat so badly that they were eating sticks of butter. So in the land of the "Eskimos", even though we aren't acclimated to the conditions, your body knows what it needs.
In extreme environments or extreme physical exertion, carbs will not do the job. You need fat. You can survive and be healthy on barely 30g carbs per day - that's less than a can of pop. I've been on a low-carb diet. You never feel hungry because the protein and fat release energy over time, keeping you satisfied for much longer. Your energy level is steady rather than having a spike followed by a drop. This evens out your insulin levels which is much healthier for you.
Sugar will also make you thirsty, causing you to drink your water supply faster. Very bad in a low-water situation. As Cody said, "You don't hydrate with pop, it has sugar". Although I don't agree with his comment mentioned above.
 
AKtrekker, very true. However, if you are trying to re-hydrate someone and water supply is not a concern, a little soda isn't that bad. A little salt, a little sugar, and your body will soak it up much faster than straight water.
Everything has a place and time. Listening to your body is generally the best idea though.
 
It's allllllllllllll about the calories, and therefor the best calorie to weight ratio..... One of the best is olive oil! Drink up(;
 
olybears57 said:
It's allllllllllllll about the calories, and therefor the best calorie to weight ratio..... One of the best is olive oil! Drink up(;
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A good short chained unsaturated triglyceride, but the long chain saturated fats can be packed a lot easier especially when it is cold out.
 
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