Emerson -- Hype or No. 1 Hard Use Knives?

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Having owned a half a dozen Benchmades, but only one Emerson, all I can say is they both make good knives.
I've heard that Emerson has had some QC problems the last year or so, but in their behalf, if they don't know it's broke they can't fix it.
I loved and carried a Sentinel and Pinnacle for awhile, but kept going back to my Commander. And no, not because of the gizmo factor, but because it's a great knife for me.
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I still carry it quite often, alternating with an LCC/DA, Nemesis and custom Elishewitz.

Though I liked my Mini-Reflex and AFO, fit and finish were not up to par of the other Benchmades or the Emerson.

e_utopia feels quite passionate about his Benchmades, which is great. But to call users that like the Emerson Commander
"un-skilled weekend warriors" is narrow minded and rude.
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I'm, sick of this, to hell with being "nice."

Alberta Ed, you've been around long enough to know better than this. How's it feel to play troll?

e_utopia.
You take it as a personal attack and idiotic statement when I say something about Benchmade, yet you preach with great sanctity while you wipe your a$$ on Ernie Emerson's good name.
You talk about EKI knives at great length, trashing them every step of the way, but I notice that you do not mention whether you even OWN an EKI knife or not.
You make general statements about quality, refer to "hype" and point out that the wave is illegal in some places. What does that have to do with the quality of the knives?
OTFs are illegal in about 48 of the 50 states, does this mean that HALOs suck?

To Emerson Detractors in general,

It has always been the way of the Wannabe and the BS Artist to pick the best man in the field and try to knock him down.

The Wannabe will rant and hollar about how little this man knows and how crappy his work is. (until the day when the wannabe is suddenly face to face with that person, then they're screwed.)

If you want to make people think you're Mr. Bada$$ Martial Artist, talk trash about Bruce Lee.

If you want people to think you're the world's best pistol shot, Trash Colonel Jeff Cooper.

If you want people to think you really know your stuff about knives, trash Ernie Emerson.

I've personally had it with this crap. I do not build myself up by tearing down great men, or attacking them from behind the safety of a computer screen and an anonymous user name and I have no use for those that do.
If you don't want to buy an EKI knife, don't. Your loss, and it doesn't matter to me in the least, but if you want to impress me by trash talking Ernie Emerson, say it to his face, I'll find that far more impressive than this constant, unsubstantiated sniping.


BTW, e-utopia.
Re-read my earlier post. I didn't say BM knives were never tempered, I said they do not know HOW to temper. I base this on the fact that their furnaces obviously have hot and cold spots resulting in SOME BM knives being perfect, but many of each batch will be either too hard or too soft. I've had crappy luck with them and every single one I've ever bought was so hard you couldn't cut it with a new file. YMMV, but this is unsatisfactory QC, but it's OKAY, because it's Benchmade, right?

FWIW, Emerson doesn't seem to have this problem. I've never heard anyone complain that they couldn't put an edge on an EKI.

That's it, I'm done. I will NOT post on this topic or any topic LIKE it ever again.

Why don't you all just go over to http://www.ezboards.com and start your own little "Emersons Suck Forum" and leave us poor deluded "weekend warriors" in peace?

One last question for e-utopia.
I spent 6 years in the US Army, and 4 years in the USMC, I've got better than 25 years of various MA training. I'm a professional gunsmith, firearms and self defense instructor, archery coach, and competitive live steel swordsman.
If that's a weekend warrior, I'm curious.
What have YOU done?



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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
Get 'im, Ken!
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As for EKI, it's like rock, or rap, or violent movies. You don't like? You don't buy/watch. Simple. Easy. Effective.

Personally, I trust my life to Ernie every day. I love his knives. My dad loved his knives. My dad was a SEAL. That does it for me.

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Of course, that's just MY opinion - I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
 
Kind of does look like that, but that wasn't my intention. Thanks for all the thoughtful answers and evaluations.
 
I've never owned an Emerson, but have handled them. My initial impression was that I would really like to own one.

One thing I did not see in anyone's post here is the Commander's Blade Magazine Overall Knife of the Year Award.

http://www.emersonknives.com/News_Commander.html

In reading some of the negative posts about some nice knives here in the forums (especially from people who have little personal experience with the knife in question) I really wonder if it is a personal preference thing--similar to a Ford versus Chevy battle. I remember as a kid telling my friends that Chevy's were better. I couldn't even drive, so how did I know? They just looked cooler. I look back at those comments and see my immaturity.

The measure of a knife's quality includes the ongoing support the company's customer service gives when something with it is not right. I've not owned or needed Emerson's customer service department, but before a knife is publicly "trashed" because of a fault, the manufacturer should be given the opportunity to remedy the problem.

Emerson hype? I don't know. But I bet they are far from crap.
 
RJ:
Becuase the Axis lock is insensitive to torquing, and won't close with slight pressure, like so many liner-locks. The Arc lock and Rolling lock also qualify for this, as well as the frame lock, ot a lesser degree. But I will not intentionally put a liner lock into a position where I need to trust it.

Don:
Do you have something you'd like to share?

Arkham:
When heat-treated properly, ATS34 is only borderline stainless.

And remember, the AFCK does not have thumbstuds, so it cannot be opened in that very-quick way.

Ken:
Tsk, tsk, tsk. Please read my posts before responding to them....

I did mention whether I owned an EKI knife. But I guess you were too busy ranting to notice....

As to the Wave being illegal, I was pointing out that EKI is behaving in an irresponsible manner, since they must certainly know this, yet I have never heard them mention it. So someone ends up on the wrong end of the law, without even knowing it. Obviously, it is, at the final assessment, the buyer's responsibility to check local laws, but to market something whose legality is so hard to determine, without even a warning....

Oh, and I would say any of this to Mr. Emerson, right to his face. I have no problem with doing so. Maybe he'll show u at the NY show, this fall, and I'll have the chance.

I'm still curious about your Halo-opening technique, Ken. Or aren't you willing to back up that statement?

BTW, Ken: where, exactly, did I claim that you said BM's aren't tempered?

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As to whether I'm being harsh, I really don't think so. Maybe I could be a little more 'political', but that's not me. I give my honest opinion when asked a question. Deal with it.

I did not say that only a 'weekend warrior' would find a use for the Wave. I said that anyone with a decent skill level doesn't have any need for it.

I am sick and tired of all the hype out there. If that bothers you, too bad. I prefer to deal with makers who have no need for hype.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Being Knife Knuts we tend to expect a lot from our production blades. Certainly the good folks at Benchmade have been called to task on more than one occasion concerning the QC of their edge grinds and heat treats. Likewise, numerous people have reported inconsistencies in the lock-up of their Emersons. Having owned many Benchmades (some of Emerson design
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) I can attest to the fact that Benchmade has put out some blades with rather thick edges in their day. My experience with the entire Emerson line at the Emerson booth at this year's SoCal Blades knifeshow revealed blades which demonstrated excellent designs and outstanding ergonomics. But, in all honesty, just over half of the folders displayed had blade lock-ups that I would consider to be clearly unsatisfactory.

Admittedly these particular demonstration folders have likely seen a good deal of use and abuse, but they are marketed as "hard use" knives, and in the end I was left to wonder if perhaps where there's smoke, there fire. In any case, it was clear that EKI has not been very sensitive to issues addressed in this forum and others.

I don't think we can take much more away from this other than to say, when at their best, both BM and EKI make excellent blades that can be relied upon unconditionally. If you have the luxury of examining several examples of a blade of either make, I'm confident you could quickly find one that would make you happy for many years (hidden inconsistencies in heat treats notwithstanding). I don't think anyone should be belittled for pointing out inconsistencies in QC, however, provided they are doing so honestly and without an agenda. I would submit that feedback such as that described above has led to noticeable improvements in BM edge grinds of late. Perhaps EKI will be motivated to tighten the QC on their blade lock-up. Sounds to me like something we could all end up benefitting from.
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Semper Fi

-Bill
 
Ken, perhaps I should further explain my perception- for what it may be worth...

First off Is that I most assuredly do not detract from any particular knife maker to build myself up. I am new to knife collecting, I've got alot to learn and I will flat out state that fact to anyone who asks. The gentleman asked for personal impressions and I gave mine. I think the concept of people sitting around on their butts with nothing better to do than badmouth a good knife (supposedly to build themselves up)is absolutely pedantic and insipid. On any other day I may have just laughed it off, but today...I guess maybe I felt a bit different.
Secondly, I didn't send the knife in to Emerson due to the fact that I was terribly disappointed in it. I returned it to the shop that sold it to me and got my money back. I've got better things to do with my time than wait around for the manufacturer to get it right. The "#1 hard use knives in the world" don't do me a damn bit of good if there somewhere between my home and the manufacturer waiting to have a problem corrected that never should have went out the doors anyways. I got rid of the knife because I quite candidly felt it was an over-rated piece of crap. I hadn't previously interpreted this action as being a character flaw IE: laziness, etc.
I actually spent about $200 "piddlin dollars" on that knife, which is alot of money to me. For me 200 extra dollars is awful hard to come by and when I do the money is most frequently spent on other things like clothes for my son, construction of my home, paying for my mine and my wifes classes and training, etc. when I do manage that kinda extra money to buy a knife I'm not going to tolerate anything other than what I feel is the very best knife I can get for my dollar, and an Emerson just aint it. At this point, I can't help but to wonder if it's ever occurred to you that there really are people who don't share the same ideas and perceptions as you and your heroes? There really are a few of us out there, and surprisingly enough I don't feel myself to be fundamentally flawed for these differences in opinion.

 
While I will not engage in the ongoing garbage or great debate going on here,

I will say that I have had many Emerson production models and have had only the slightest problem very recently. On a NIB Commander the blade SLIGHTLY rubbed the liner, I attempted to alter the rubbing by turning the screw, but it did not work to my satisfaction.

I called EKI, was told to send in the knife, did so, and if you don't include UPS travel to the other coast both ways, I had my knife (don't know if it was replaced or repaired, but it was new anyway so who cares) back in my hands in 3 days. I personally don't have ANY problem with customer sevice like that.

And BTW e_utopia,
Would you care to share your facts as to how the "wave" is illegal?

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
 
Runs with Scissors,
I felt like I went to reasonable effort to point out that I was "not throwing any stones at you" and I will admit that I didn't consider the third option of simply returning to the retailer for a refund. My bad, I apologize. (I would hope the retailer returned the knife to EKI with a full description of the customer complaint though.)
The world is FULL of people who have differing opinions, that's what makes a horse race.

If you don't like Emerson knives, I have no problem with that, nor do I have a problem with you saying so. However, when someone comes along and implies or states forthrightly, that anyone who DOES like Emerson knives is something less than admirable, I take exception. (see below)

I don't care if others own Spydercos, Benchmades, Cammis, whatever, but there seems to be a large concensus of those who believe that because I like EKI knives, I am some sort of brainwashed, ignorant, wannabe cult member, worshipping at the feet of Ernie Emerson. I'm quite frankly fed up with it, and if you'll search back through the forum archives, you'll understand why.

I meant no offense to you personally, and should have taken into account that you haven't been at BFC long enough to know the "history" this issue has.

One last point for your consideration though.
If you limit yourself to using only knives, guns, etc, that are perfect out of the box, you're going to be in for a lot of disappointment in life.
I make a lot of my money taking "out of the box" guns and making them better. Does this mean they can't be trusted? Absolutely not.
Same with knives.
It may need a little tweaking out of the box, it happens sometimes, no knife maker is perfect. That doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water. Order enough knives online, and eventually, you'll get a bad one from every maker on Earth.

Try another Commander sometime, you may well be glad you did.

I know I said I wasn't going to respond to this mess anymore, but feeling that I needed to apologize to Runs with Scissors, I also feel I need to address e_utopia, lest he choose to believe that my silence implies acquiescence.

e_utopia,

Pardon my confusion,
You talk about Emerson Knives as if you know what you're talking about (implying you've owned one.) and then talk about trying not to snicker while "checking them out." (implying that you do NOT.)
Either way, you make no clear and unequivocal statement as to whether you own one or not.

As for myself, you wonder about the HALO?
Am I prepared to back it up?
You bet!
I'll "race" anyone that cares to, Halo against Commander, and the Commander will deploy faster. I love my Halo, I think it's off the meter on "coolness factor" but the simple fact is, it does not deploy as fast as any of the waved knives.

As for working at developing the "skill" of doing a wave type deployment with a thumbstud, I wonder how much time you spend each day practicing your rapid reload technique for your Kentucky Rifle?

You see, that's obsolete technology too.
Why should I waste one minute of valuable training time learing how to use the wrong tool for the job when the right tool is readily available?

As to Emerson being irresponsible for selling knives that are illegal in some places, I notice you do not complain about the illegal Microtech you own. What's up?

Let's just ask all the makers to make only 2.9 inch Case-type Trappers and Hobos. (Oh yeah, those are illegal in some places too!)

But then, what do I know? I'm only a "weekend warrior" that "enjoy(s) feeling like a big-tough-knive-fighter..." I guess I'm in good company though. There's a whole boat load of Spec Ops guys you painted with the same wide brush.


BTW,
I notice you didn't answer my question, I suppose it must have slipped your mind.
I'll ask once more.
What have YOU done?
Anything?

I will not post to this thread again.
Momma taught me never to try to teach a pig to sing. It merely wastes your time and annoys the pig.
So here, I bow out, waiting patiently for e_utopia to answer the question put before him.

e_utopia, if you would like further discourse with me on this subject, may I suggest you bring it to W&C?



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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
Listen up everybody! There will be no more childish tantrums,semi-veiled threats, finger pointing, taunting or anything else that can be catagorized as not being nice allowed on this thread. I have been gone for a few days, which is why I haven't adressed anything here.Everybody has the right to express their own opinion on this forum. If you cannot respond in a reasonable, non confrontational manner, than the problem is yours, not the other persons. The first rule of Bladeforums is to BE NICE! I am going to leave the thread open for now and the combatants a chance to turn this in a more positive direction. If not, this thread will be closed.
David

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AKTI# A000150
NC Custom Knifemakers Guild member
NC Knife Knuts member
 
Jailhack: many jurisdictions have a clause about 'any device which allows a knife with a locking blade to be drawn in the locked position' (or similar wording). I don't know hwere you are located, so I can't comment on your situation, specifically.

Ken:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Thank you, but I won't be buying an Emerson anytime soon</font>
Click to expand...
I guess that wasn't specific enough for you? I don't have to own one, when inspecting several show that they were in no way trustworthy.

I want you to tell me how you open your Halo, so that it is slower than the Commander. Not a challenge to a race you know will never happen (I ain't flying out to AZ just to prove you wrong). Who's hiding behind a computer, now?

Hmmm.... obsolete technology, huh? Seems to me that I have an advantage. If you don't happen to have your Commander with you, you lose your speed-draw 'edge'. I can use any knife with thumbstuds that I pick up.

Who said I own an illegal Microtech? And even if I do, it still does not make it responsible for Emerson to market something which is often illegal, with no warnings. You would be more likely to have to work to convince someone that you can legally own a Halo3 than to convince someone that the Wave is illegal. When something is borderline like that, it is irresponsible not to give any sort of warning.

Funny, most 'Spec Ops' people I've met won't carry any sort of folder.

I'll answer your question once you answer mine. I want to know, specifically, how you are drawing your Halo3, that it isn't as fast at the Wave.

And no, I think I won't bring it to W&C. I have no need to hide behind passwords.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Sorry, David. I'll try to sugar-coat things a little more, in the future.
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I'm simply sick of the hype that I see everywhere, and I guess I needed to vent.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Just my 2cents in an already too-heated discussion.

Design-wise, I find Emersons interesting. I like the features like the wave, and there's an uncompromising pursuit of function despite how horrendous the aesthetics end up. You gotta admire that on some level
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However, one big downside for me is that Emersons tend to have huge handles relative to their blade size. Nearly 5" handles for 3.25" blades? The knives are just too uncarryable.

Manufacturing quality, though, is the real concern. I feel that superficially, Emersons are about the same quality of high-end Benchmades (e.g., Axis 710) and Spydercos (e.g., Wegner), although the Emersons are at a significantly higher price point. However, that's superficially. Start looking deeper, and you find just too many problems with Emerson's liner locks -- contrast that with the Axis, arguably a contender for best lock going. I hear too many complaints about other QA issues as well. Meanwhile, Spyderco's QA has always been excellent, Benchmade's has vastly improved (including the heat treat which I now feel is very good).

In all, my personal feeling is that for Emersons to be competitive, I'd definitely need to see much more reliable locks, and a price reduction to bring the knives more in line with the Benchmades and Spydercos that are comparable (especially since both those brands have much better locks). Design-wise, I wouldn't mind seeing Emerson sacrifice a little utility for better carryability, either.

Joe
 
Thanks, Joe! And all the others who gave their honest impressions and evaluations. Now, maybe we oughta bank some sand over the coals and let this just die down. I apologize if I stirred something up (but it sure was interesting).
 
Usual Suspects understand the Emerson allure. 'Nuf said.
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Eric - Usual Suspect
"The best toys are the ones that you can put an eye out with."
 
Well, after I vowed to run far from this topic.....here I am!

Ken- I did note the stone throwing part of your initial post there, but after that I felt that I was quickly being thrown into one of the categories you'd mentioned. I did type that second post in haste and in retrospect I feel that I reacted a bit more strongly than necessary and.....arrrgh! I HATE to say this! may have been a bit juvenile in my response, which I'd like to think is extremely out of character for me.

my Emerson really didn't work out for me. It was one of the very first knives I'd owned that couldn't be purchased out of the sporting goods department in the local Wal-Mart, so it's not entirely impossible that I was holding it up to a higher standard of expectation than is fair. I'm most likely going to keep an eye out on the forums, and play with a few at the local shops and re-evaluate the situation in a few months. Overall I'm glad to hear that most experiences with Emersons have been better than mine, in a few months, hopefully I can have a different perception.
So....now that this post is done, I'm running far, far away....I'm not posting on this thread or any like it again! really and for truly! I mean it!

*turns around and stalks off in search of something more intelligent to do-like marching into a PETA convention covered in exotic furs....*

Y'all have a good day!
 
This thread is closed. E_ utopia, this isn't about sugar coating. Use the knife you love and go play with it until you both reach Nervana. Any thread that begins with the the threat that flames are forthcoming is irresponsible and will not be tolerated. If you cannot respond with a basic level of respect to the previous posting, let me assure you it is your ass on the line, not the previous poster. I do not give a flying care about total number of postings or who is moderator somewhere else. you will BE NICE here or be gone
David

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AKTI# A000150
NC Custom Knifemakers Guild member
NC Knife Knuts member
 
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