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Emerson quality control?
- Thread starter cockroachfarm
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
Clayton,
That's why I'm happy, because I have never had to work on mine.
Like I said above, there are issues that need to be fixed, but there are those that I think are flipping out as well.
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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
That's why I'm happy, because I have never had to work on mine.
Like I said above, there are issues that need to be fixed, but there are those that I think are flipping out as well.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
I'll admit the fading screws issue seems to be a bit ridiculous, but it's a sign of bigger quality control problems.
As far as I know, Emerson knives are the only ones that show this "problem", and having a knife look well worn after you have only carried it once or twice detracts seriously from the value.
I guess the best way to put it is that a large number of the knives from Emerson seem to have been "pre hard used" straight from the factory.
Everyone seems to agree that Emerson needs more quality control, the only disagreement is on the amount required.
My question is this: Where is the incentive for Emerson to improve if the knives keep selling?
As for the '98 version of the Commander, I'd love to see one if it's that much better than the current version. What I can see happening though is some "deluxe" Commander that Emerson turns out that bears a suspicious resemblance to the '98 Commander and commands a much higher price.
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mikemck@austin.rr.com
As far as I know, Emerson knives are the only ones that show this "problem", and having a knife look well worn after you have only carried it once or twice detracts seriously from the value.
I guess the best way to put it is that a large number of the knives from Emerson seem to have been "pre hard used" straight from the factory.
Everyone seems to agree that Emerson needs more quality control, the only disagreement is on the amount required.
My question is this: Where is the incentive for Emerson to improve if the knives keep selling?
As for the '98 version of the Commander, I'd love to see one if it's that much better than the current version. What I can see happening though is some "deluxe" Commander that Emerson turns out that bears a suspicious resemblance to the '98 Commander and commands a much higher price.
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mikemck@austin.rr.com
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2000
- Messages
- 598
I emailed EK about the pivot screw problem and they said they use lock tight on their knives now. I don't think lock tight is a great solution. Many knives do not allow disassembly and many of these knives are used for years and years with out problems. EK takes forever for customs and they make small size blades.
Don't waste your $ on EK. Check out CRKT.
Don't waste your $ on EK. Check out CRKT.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
There were other differences between the 98 and 99/00/01 Commanders, the major difference being, the liners and scales were much thicker...demonstrably thicker. And that had the overall effect of making it into a tank. The QC on the locks/pivots does need to be addressed though.
In answer to your last question, I am a fan of these knives, they are the fastest Defensive Folders on the Planet. But to answer your statement, if there was a re-run of the 98C and the price went up...he could have it then.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2000
- Messages
- 38
I don't make knives, niether do I own a knife making bussiness. But if I did, and it had the kind of following EKI does, I would be appalled to find it has a reputation in the knife cummunity as being one with "questionable" quality.
Most of the problems with Emerson knives could be EASILY fixed, so why arent they? Better coatings, thicker lingings, better quality control, etc..
Some of these problems might be minor, but in a higher end knife they need to be addressed. Ernest needs to step in and take action. His name depends on it.
Most of the problems with Emerson knives could be EASILY fixed, so why arent they? Better coatings, thicker lingings, better quality control, etc..
Some of these problems might be minor, but in a higher end knife they need to be addressed. Ernest needs to step in and take action. His name depends on it.
SALTY
Gold Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2000
- Messages
- 5,792
I do not know this for a fact about EKI and am merely making a general comment about the progress of some companies.
Small company starts out with innovative idea that catches on. Small following commences and demand for product increases. Government agencies let contracts as the "community" has a way of sticking togther. Praises for design increase, as does demand. Small company gets bigger and forgets its roots. Greed and ego replace the ethics that provided original success. Company gets to a level where they make money despite themselves. Loyal consumer gets screwed.
Every once in awhile you come accross an exception, but it is rare. These exceptions are gems and derserve loyal customer support. Knives and other "personal" items are a great place to find these exceptions. Seems like many people wish EKI would step up to the plate, like their customers have.
Small company starts out with innovative idea that catches on. Small following commences and demand for product increases. Government agencies let contracts as the "community" has a way of sticking togther. Praises for design increase, as does demand. Small company gets bigger and forgets its roots. Greed and ego replace the ethics that provided original success. Company gets to a level where they make money despite themselves. Loyal consumer gets screwed.
Every once in awhile you come accross an exception, but it is rare. These exceptions are gems and derserve loyal customer support. Knives and other "personal" items are a great place to find these exceptions. Seems like many people wish EKI would step up to the plate, like their customers have.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2000
- Messages
- 6,104
I bought a 2000 Commander last year, and will never buy another Emerson product. Worst knife purchase I've made. People can make excuses for Emerson all they want to, but there is no such thing as a good excuse.
To answer the original question, No! These defects are not acceptable. My BMs and Spydercos cost less, and are much better knives. Pisses me off every time I look at it.
To answer the original question, No! These defects are not acceptable. My BMs and Spydercos cost less, and are much better knives. Pisses me off every time I look at it.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
I for one am not making excuses about it.
Perhaps I could tell you about a couple clunker Benchmades I have encountered and then discount everything you said...eh?
Or maybe the brand new out of the box Spyderco Endura that failed while a Friend of mine was using it, while on an extension ladder no less, cutting a nylon tie over his head (wires attached to a beam) when the lock closed on his hand...he said the back of the tip "tapped" the steel beam the nylon wire tie was attached to, and it folded on his knuckle. Although thankfully it did not cut him, just a scratch, the potential for a deadly accident was there. He has access to these Forums and while that knife was immediately discarded, he did not want it replaced because he lost all faith in it [Spyderco Knives]...he did not come on here and whine about it. He is, in fact, carrying a Benchmade Stryker now.
So, you see, the Internet is a wonderful thing, I would really love to see the REAL numbers of Emersons returned for faulty locks, etc.
The simple fact of the matter is, you don't know the failure rate unless you work for a Manufacturer. I think they all eek crappers out once in awhile. Just my opinion.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Perhaps I could tell you about a couple clunker Benchmades I have encountered and then discount everything you said...eh?
Or maybe the brand new out of the box Spyderco Endura that failed while a Friend of mine was using it, while on an extension ladder no less, cutting a nylon tie over his head (wires attached to a beam) when the lock closed on his hand...he said the back of the tip "tapped" the steel beam the nylon wire tie was attached to, and it folded on his knuckle. Although thankfully it did not cut him, just a scratch, the potential for a deadly accident was there. He has access to these Forums and while that knife was immediately discarded, he did not want it replaced because he lost all faith in it [Spyderco Knives]...he did not come on here and whine about it. He is, in fact, carrying a Benchmade Stryker now.
So, you see, the Internet is a wonderful thing, I would really love to see the REAL numbers of Emersons returned for faulty locks, etc.
The simple fact of the matter is, you don't know the failure rate unless you work for a Manufacturer. I think they all eek crappers out once in awhile. Just my opinion.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2000
- Messages
- 981
Don,
You have a valid point in that it is possible to get a lemon from any manufacturer at a given time.
However, a lot of Emerson owners at this MB are giving negative feedback. I don't think it is a mere coincidence, and I don't think it's a mass hysteria case of *cognitive dissonance.
The stories are all very similiar which gives reason to believe that there may be a problem with Emerson knives. I know it may not be representative STATISTICALLY speaking. However, I do trust the opinions of a lot of the knife knuts here and it is enough to prevent me from buying that Commander I've wanted.
You just don't hear that same pattern of complaints against, say, Spyderco products.
Personally, I think Ernest Emerson's designs are brilliant. He just needs to parlay that type of excellence onto his assembly line.
It is only through consumer complaints/feedback that manufacturers will change their attitudes, production processes, and products.
*footnote - Cognitive dissonance, often referred to as "buyer's remorse", is that guilty feeling you get after purchasing something; especially high-priced items.
[This message has been edited by Full Tang Clan (edited 01-31-2001).]
You have a valid point in that it is possible to get a lemon from any manufacturer at a given time.
However, a lot of Emerson owners at this MB are giving negative feedback. I don't think it is a mere coincidence, and I don't think it's a mass hysteria case of *cognitive dissonance.
The stories are all very similiar which gives reason to believe that there may be a problem with Emerson knives. I know it may not be representative STATISTICALLY speaking. However, I do trust the opinions of a lot of the knife knuts here and it is enough to prevent me from buying that Commander I've wanted.
You just don't hear that same pattern of complaints against, say, Spyderco products.
Personally, I think Ernest Emerson's designs are brilliant. He just needs to parlay that type of excellence onto his assembly line.
It is only through consumer complaints/feedback that manufacturers will change their attitudes, production processes, and products.
*footnote - Cognitive dissonance, often referred to as "buyer's remorse", is that guilty feeling you get after purchasing something; especially high-priced items.
[This message has been edited by Full Tang Clan (edited 01-31-2001).]
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
Nothing to disagree with about that at all.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2000
- Messages
- 6,104
Don, my reply wasn't pointed at you, but while a clunker BM and a clunker Emerson might both be clunkers, the Emerson would be the greater disappointment. If I pay more, I expect more (I expect any knife I buy to work like it's supposed to, though).
I've been fortunate enough to have good luck with all my other production knives, so it hasn't been an issue. I love Emerson's designs, particularly the Mach 1 and Commander. My Commander was not nearly as bad as some have posted about on the forums-mostly fit and finish gripes. That's enough for me, though, since I'm a bit of a detail freak. I just don't like a product that doesn't show attention to detail, regardless of who makes it. I'm a nitpicker
btw, I didn't go whining on the Emerson forum, try to send a used knife back, or bash them as a whole. Just decided they weren't for me. The post asked what we thought of Emerson's QC....
btw, no problem with the lockup (liner moved to the middle and stopped-locks up very tight, no blade play).
[This message has been edited by OwenM (edited 01-31-2001).]
I've been fortunate enough to have good luck with all my other production knives, so it hasn't been an issue. I love Emerson's designs, particularly the Mach 1 and Commander. My Commander was not nearly as bad as some have posted about on the forums-mostly fit and finish gripes. That's enough for me, though, since I'm a bit of a detail freak. I just don't like a product that doesn't show attention to detail, regardless of who makes it. I'm a nitpicker
btw, I didn't go whining on the Emerson forum, try to send a used knife back, or bash them as a whole. Just decided they weren't for me. The post asked what we thought of Emerson's QC....
btw, no problem with the lockup (liner moved to the middle and stopped-locks up very tight, no blade play).
[This message has been edited by OwenM (edited 01-31-2001).]
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2001
- Messages
- 4,399
Some additional thoughts:
1. The Emerson knives were my first SERIOUS purchases as a potential knife knut and were made on a recommendation from a fellow shooter as being the best "working" knife to buy.
2. My original comment was made regarding what I consider a very OBVIOUS defect with the spine of the blade. A slightly rough edge on a handle or a screw head with the finish worn off (even if it was received that way) would not bother me. (In spite of the fact that I AM a nitpicker).
3. I don't yet own a "one-of" knife from a custom maker (need a little more experience to make that decision), but when I look at the little $28.00 Lightfoot Urban Shark in front of me, how much better can the quality of a "name" knife be? The fit and finish of the CRK&T is superb!
4. I'm a bit disappointed to hear about the problems other people have had with Emerson products. Will I buy another Emerson knife? Yes, without hesitation. If it ALSO has an "obvious" manufacturing defect, will I let them know about it? You bet.
5. All correspondence with Emerson Knives has been courteous, helpful, and they have always been quick to respond to, what they must consider, my naive questions. In fact, I am just about to return the knife in question to them for an update on the pivot bolt.
6. From my short membership in this forum, I believe that the majority of the members are intelligent and experienced enough NOT to make frivolous or malicious remarks about the quality of the products discussed. My advice to Ernest Emerson after reading some of the negative comments in this thread? Make QC your number one priority in 2001! With a name that is obviously established, spending money in this area will reap far greater long-term benefits than mounting a $1-million ad campaign in the various knife magazines. We used to repeat this old chestnut to every client we did advertising for: "If you're lucky, every satisfied customer you create might tell one other person. Every dissatisfied customer you create will take pleasure in telling at least 10 other people!"
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Holger
:c{{{<
1. The Emerson knives were my first SERIOUS purchases as a potential knife knut and were made on a recommendation from a fellow shooter as being the best "working" knife to buy.
2. My original comment was made regarding what I consider a very OBVIOUS defect with the spine of the blade. A slightly rough edge on a handle or a screw head with the finish worn off (even if it was received that way) would not bother me. (In spite of the fact that I AM a nitpicker).
3. I don't yet own a "one-of" knife from a custom maker (need a little more experience to make that decision), but when I look at the little $28.00 Lightfoot Urban Shark in front of me, how much better can the quality of a "name" knife be? The fit and finish of the CRK&T is superb!
4. I'm a bit disappointed to hear about the problems other people have had with Emerson products. Will I buy another Emerson knife? Yes, without hesitation. If it ALSO has an "obvious" manufacturing defect, will I let them know about it? You bet.
5. All correspondence with Emerson Knives has been courteous, helpful, and they have always been quick to respond to, what they must consider, my naive questions. In fact, I am just about to return the knife in question to them for an update on the pivot bolt.
6. From my short membership in this forum, I believe that the majority of the members are intelligent and experienced enough NOT to make frivolous or malicious remarks about the quality of the products discussed. My advice to Ernest Emerson after reading some of the negative comments in this thread? Make QC your number one priority in 2001! With a name that is obviously established, spending money in this area will reap far greater long-term benefits than mounting a $1-million ad campaign in the various knife magazines. We used to repeat this old chestnut to every client we did advertising for: "If you're lucky, every satisfied customer you create might tell one other person. Every dissatisfied customer you create will take pleasure in telling at least 10 other people!"
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Holger
:c{{{<
I've owned 3 Commanders in the last 3 years and 2 of them had to be sent back because they had lock problems. The good one was a 98. The SOCFK I had was perfect as was a CQC7B. The pivot was loose on my I&I tanto, but that was easily fixed.
As far as finish and design goes, I think that the finish on Emerson production knives is the epitome of the tactical folder.
From what I've read, most problems seem to be with the lock-up on the newer Commanders.
As far as finish and design goes, I think that the finish on Emerson production knives is the epitome of the tactical folder.
From what I've read, most problems seem to be with the lock-up on the newer Commanders.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
Well Man! What do you want for the 98 Commander!?!?
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2000
- Messages
- 598
Emerson Knives have quality control problems. So why doesn't Emerson do something about this???
I've started a Emerson liner Lock problem list on the Emerson Forum......please post if you have any comments (good or bad) regarding this issue.
My Commander (actually 2 of them) failed on Nov '99 and both were resent to Emerson Knives. You still read about sick Emerson liner locks. Don't they give a damn about releasing a DANGEROUS product?
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/001060.html
Thanks,
jc
[This message has been edited by jc (edited 02-11-2001).]
[This message has been edited by jc (edited 02-11-2001).]
My Commander (actually 2 of them) failed on Nov '99 and both were resent to Emerson Knives. You still read about sick Emerson liner locks. Don't they give a damn about releasing a DANGEROUS product?
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/001060.html
Thanks,
jc
[This message has been edited by jc (edited 02-11-2001).]
[This message has been edited by jc (edited 02-11-2001).]
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2000
- Messages
- 3,625
Hmmm, makes me think twice about getting a Commander with the Wave, pity looks a good knife.
W.A.
------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
W.A.
------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!