End Mill Advice for CNC

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Disclaimer, I’m just a guy who likes to make knives, I have not made a living making them. I learned machining from the internet and YouTube for the most part, so my knowledge is narrow compared to a machinist. I think setups/fixturing is an interesting and critical part of cnc knifemaking. I’d be very interested to see what other people have come up with. I’ve tried several different methods of work holding and setups.

This is my current setup:

First op: Barstock is held by pitbull clamps. Downside of this is that they have a very short clamping range, so precision ground stock works great, but rough stock sometimes needs to be cleaned up to fit.
A 1/8 mill does almost everything, bores the holes, etc. That runs for a while, then engraving and chamfering. If I need to knock a few thou off the thickness I’ll put in a 1/4 end mill and face the stock here. If I need to take a bit off or take off that cpm scale/pitting I’ll do that here too, flipping it.
Second op: flip the barstock and screw it down. Again 1/8 end mill does everything but chamfers and engraving.
Handles op 1: same as the barstock, 3/16 end mill does holes, then an 82 degree countersink
Handles op 2: screwed down to the fixture as shown. Area is raised so a 1/4 ball mill can use the side flutes to profile, then the ball to contour the tops.

I use a 1/8 mostly because it can reach all the holes etc without being too large. I used to spot, drill, preream, and ream the holes. For putting scales on a blade, boring the holes and then finishing them to size with the same end mill works great. The threaded standoffs are up to .005 over sized anyway so no point in making .25 hole with multiple tool changes. The boring has been consistent.

I harden the blade after machining and finishing. So far I’ve only used air hardening steels. They stay very clean with foil wrap so cleanup after heat treat is re-hand sanding. Might be more efficient to harden a blank and then machine it and be done. That’s something I’d like to try sometime but haven’t. Some of the steels I like to use would be really hard to sand out machining marks by hand in a hardened state. I don’t see why a tormach couldn’t do hardened steel. I think you would have to nail speeds and feeds and it would be real slow.

For speeds and feeds I’ve found FSWizard pro to give working numbers on the first try almost every time when I set it to 70%. I was always having chatter with g wizard numbers.

I think the fixture could be improved by finding a way to clamp with more clamp range. I think I might make the next one bolt to the table instead of the vise.

A different setup would be needed for cranking out lots of knives from a big sheet of steel or handle material.

I’ve thought about trying oil hardening steel. I think I’d try doing one the same way but hardening with pbc powder and seeing if that gives enough protection. Could harden a blank but with this setup it would be a barstock blank, so I’d worry about getting good through hardening. A different setup where you have a profiled blank, then heat treat, then do the bevels might work.

Side note, I give a .01 or .015 step over for the blade flats and .001 for the plunge. It seems to be a good compromise between speed and finish. I’ve tried ball and bull end mills but they don’t seem to give any better of a finish, with the parallel tool path.


If you are machining knives, you might like to read this old WIP from Nathan.
 
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View attachment 1753586
View attachment 1753587
View attachment 1753591

Disclaimer, I’m just a guy who likes to make knives, I have not made a living making them. I learned machining from the internet and YouTube for the most part, so my knowledge is narrow compared to a machinist. I think setups/fixturing is an interesting and critical part of cnc knifemaking. I’d be very interested to see what other people have come up with. I’ve tried several different methods of work holding and setups.

This is my current setup:

First op: Barstock is held by pitbull clamps. Downside of this is that they have a very short clamping range, so precision ground stock works great, but rough stock sometimes needs to be cleaned up to fit.
A 1/8 mill does almost everything, bores the holes, etc. That runs for a while, then engraving and chamfering. If I need to knock a few thou off the thickness I’ll put in a 1/4 end mill and face the stock here. If I need to take a bit off or take off that cpm scale/pitting I’ll do that here too, flipping it.
Second op: flip the barstock and screw it down. Again 1/8 end mill does everything but chamfers and engraving.
Handles op 1: same as the barstock, 3/16 end mill does holes, then an 82 degree countersink
Handles op 2: screwed down to the fixture as shown. Area is raised so a 1/4 ball mill can use the side flutes to profile, then the ball to contour the tops.

I use a 1/8 mostly because it can reach all the holes etc without being too large. I used to spot, drill, preream, and ream the holes. For putting scales on a blade, boring the holes and then finishing them to size with the same end mill works great. The threaded standoffs are up to .005 over sized anyway so no point in making .25 hole with multiple tool changes. The boring has been consistent.

I harden the blade after machining and finishing. So far I’ve only used air hardening steels. They stay very clean with foil wrap so cleanup after heat treat is re-hand sanding. Might be more efficient to harden a blank and then machine it and be done. That’s something I’d like to try sometime but haven’t. Some of the steels I like to use would be really hard to sand out machining marks by hand in a hardened state. I don’t see why a tormach couldn’t do hardened steel. I think you would have to nail speeds and feeds and it would be real slow.

For speeds and feeds I’ve found FSWizard pro to give working numbers on the first try almost every time when I set it to 70%. I was always having chatter with g wizard numbers.

I think the fixture could be improved by finding a way to clamp with more clamp range. I think I might make the next one bolt to the table instead of the vise.

A different setup would be needed for cranking out lots of knives from a big sheet of steel or handle material.

I’ve thought about trying oil hardening steel. I think I’d try doing one the same way but hardening with pbc powder and seeing if that gives enough protection. Could harden a blank but with this setup it would be a barstock blank, so I’d worry about getting good through hardening. A different setup where you have a profiled blank, then heat treat, then do the bevels might work.

Side note, I give a .01 or .015 step over for the blade flats and .001 for the plunge. It seems to be a good compromise between speed and finish. I’ve tried ball and bull end mills but they don’t seem to give any better of a finish, with the parallel tool path.
Badass, man. Thanks so much for this. I know you're talking yourself down, but you're where I'd like to be within the year.

That's really smart with the 1/8" end mill. I was planning on 1/4" for everything but if the 1/8" replaces a drill bit then that's excellent for my tool-changer-less setup I'm planning. My only question is, for beveling do you think the tool width affects the smoothness of finish, 1/8 vs 1/4?

I think I'm understanding you're using the initial pitbull clamps setup to bore the holes as well as the bevel, which Gough saves for a separate step. It looks like you're happy with the rigidity of that setup?

It's funny you should mention ditching the vise. I was considering buying a fixture plate with the measured holes so I could switch things out more quickly and accurately, but then I saw you were using a vise to hold everything and it made me wonder. I guess if my way makes sense I'll just be using the vise to initially make the fixtures. I was thinking I'd make each step it's own fixture block so it would be modular on the fixture plate and I could interchange them for whatever reason. Don't know if that makes sense.

Are your fixtures unique to each knife? I was thinking as long as the handle holes were identical between two designs, I could still run a knife with a different profile on it on the same fixture. Seems like there's no way around the handle fixturing being per design if it's best to use the ball mill in that way.

I was planning on beveling by running up and down the Y axis instead of parallel X axis like i believe you do. Curious if you had tried both.

That's a valuable tip on FSWizard. I'll likely take your advice. I've also decided to upgrade to a 770 instead of a 440 based on everyone's feedback in hopes that it'll help with rigidity/accuracy.
 

If you are machining knives, you might like to read this old WIP from Nathan.
Thanks Richard, I've been meaning to comb through more of Nathan's stuff, so it's great to have this here.
 
A larger diameter tool will give less cusp at the same stepover. It is diminishing returns though. I think I get better finishes off the 1/8. But that can be a lot of factors like a fresher tool, better feeds/speeds, lower cutting forces, a less interrupted cut, chip clearing, etc.

I have not noticed any issues with the rigidity with that setup.

You could make a modular setup. Grimsmo and Gough do that I believe. It adds complexity to your fixturing. When you make it out of one piece you don’t add tolerance errors for separately matching portions and affixing those portions to another machined piece. I found that just changing out a blade fixture to a handle fixture gave error. The handle profile was off just slightly from the blade profile, a slight angle. If you have really accurate machines and a really accurate way to align the add on plate to a base plate this is probably not a problem. I think it is simple to make it one piece.

You could make some different designs on the same fixture. I have made slight adjustments. It usually ends up being a fight with fusion 360. With every new knife I’ve made I have evolved my fixturing.

My bevels are cut in Y and the stepover is in X. So it cuts starting at the edge and goes towards the spine, steps over from tip towards plunge.
 
Yea that's a good point TILLER, I'll keep it simple for now and do it as one solid fixture to avoid trouble.

I was toying with the idea of profiling and beveling on the bar stock, heat treating still attached to the bar, then bolting back to the fixture to do a finishing pass on the bevel. This is for two reasons: 1. I'm worried I'll mess up all the clean CNC work on the bevels if I need to descale by hand from heat treat. I'm planning on trying some irregular tanto styles. (Hoping anti-scale helps) 2. I saw Gough mentioned he gets by far cleaner finishing on hardened steel.

One complication I'm foreseeing is I'm hoping to do some duotone black cerakote/raw steel blade finishes. Similar to Microtech where you resurface the flats after cerakote. That means that I'll have to mill the profile and bevels, heat treat, sand bevels and flats to 220 grit, cerakote, then resurface the flats. I'm a little intimidated to have all those steps and then mess it up resurfacing, but maybe that just means I need to invest in a good surface grinder as well.

It's cool seeing your fixture evolution from the old ones! Can I ask what the total depth is of your 3 part fixture? The 440 has a Y limit of 6.25", so I'm not even sure if that's enough room to not run into problems.

I'm very close to getting a 770 here so I can put into practice all you're showing me. Looking forward to proving it was not in vain ;)
 
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Very cool, thanks for sharing, kuraki! Yea, I've spent the last few years designing other things like buildings and installations in 3D for work, so when I picked this up I immediately started 3D modeling my prototypes first. Now I'm wanting to streamline that process from the model into an accurate physical manifestation as efficiently as possible, hence the determination to CNC.
Very impressive and informative post. I have 40+ years as a knife maker, and a lot of cnc and manual machining experience!!!
 
Very impressive and informative post. I have 40+ years as a knife maker, and a lot of cnc and manual machining experience!!!
I'm grateful for all these guys that commented thus far. It's encouraging to see a community that's so supportive and ready to share.
 
It's cool seeing your fixture evolution from the old ones! Can I ask what the total depth is of your 3 part fixture? The 440 has a Y limit of 6.25", so I'm not even sure if that's enough room to not run into problems.

6” in Y. Used a 12x6x1 plate. 6” opening vise.
 
I like talking about this stuff. I’ve learned a lot from this forum over the years, happy to share.
 
Just an update to show everyone's advice did not go to the wind... my CNC is finally here. Can't wait to apply the advice and feedback. Glacern vise, Saunders fixture plate, power drawbar, no ATC... Let's go!
 

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