EP issues - move to stones or paper wheel?

[RipD]

I have an EP and 3 Shapton stones + the standard EP stones. I get how it works and get good enough results. It's also frustrating. There's no reasonable way to keep a consistent grind on a blade toward the tip. Large knives have a similar problem - as you move across a long, tall blade, the angle changes. You either have to stop and re-position the blade, or pivot the knife as you're sharpening it. Having to hold the blade still while pulling the stone across it seems kind of goofy. Every time I use it I wonder why there's not a clamp. I really hope I'm just missing something.

If I want to ditch the EP it seems like stones (which I have) or a paper wheel are options. I know the wheel generates controversy. I don't care about getting a polished edge - I just want to keep my knives sharp. Maybe a course stone and a wheel for minor correction and stropping? Note that earlier in life I worked in a machine shop. I have no concerns about managing a blade on a moving wheel.

Any thoughts? Is there an easy way to mitigate the EP angle issue?

 

[jll346]

You absolutely must move the blade as you go. You want the portion of the blade you are sharpening as parallel with the front of the ep as possible. When doing the tip your knife should be about at a 45* angle so the tip is up front on the base. Knife most definitely can not remain in same position through out the sharpening process.

It definitely takes time to get used to. Especially your non dominant hand!!! Also, try not to put to much pressure on knife and sharpening hand. Steady but relaxed with light smooth strokes.

 

[bolabeenz]

I went through some of what you're experiencing with the EP. Frustrating; those learning curves.
I'd say go freehand because that's what I did. And, I like doing it.

The EP is a nice sharpening system. If you want to stick with it I'm sure people here will give you good advice to smooth that curve out.

 

[RipD]

Thanks to both for the help. No question it's a good tool, btw. I get my kitchen knives screaming sharp. I'm just considering how keep a nice pocket knife blade bevel looking even along the entire blade. If I need to proactive positioning I may just get more time on the stones and/or try a wheel.

btw, it makes sense that you would have to move the knife. Was thinking this was incorrect because Ben (EP guy) only moves very large knives.

 

[wvdavidr]

I use the Edge Pro small knife attachment for paring and folding knives. It makes sharpening the tips easy. You shouldn't need to move knives shorter than 6". There may be some variation, but it will be small (probably less than freehanding or the Lansky kit, etc.). I'd suggest watching the videos on their site.

 

[RipD]

I use the Edge Pro small knife attachment for paring and folding knives. It makes sharpening the tips easy. You shouldn't need to move knives shorter than 6". There may be some variation, but it will be small (probably less than freehanding or the Lansky kit, etc.). I'd suggest watching the videos on their site.

Yep, have watched the videos. I used to live near EP and Ben showed me how to use my EP when I bought it. It does a good job. However, the geometry for knife tips, even short ones, has to change the angle as the cutting edge gets further away from being perpendicular to the to stone. Seem the only way to mitigate is to pivot the tip. Keeping it more centered helps too, of course.

I only noticed when I decided to take a course stone to a very beaten up DLC blade. The angle at the tip is extreme compared to the rest of the blade, and the removed DLC makes it more obvious.

PS: Ben is a great guy, btw. Exactly as he appears in his videos. Used to see him around town occasionally and we would chat. Can't say enough good things about him. I live about 90 mins away from his shop now. I could also ask if he'd be willing to help me out with this.

 

[cbwx34]

Yep, have watched the videos. I used to live near EP and Ben showed me how to use my EP when I bought it. It does a good job. However, the geometry for knife tips, even short ones, has to change the angle as the cutting edge gets further away from being perpendicular to the to stone. Seem the only way to mitigate is to pivot the tip. Keeping it more centered helps too, of course.

I only noticed when I decided to take a course stone to a very beaten up DLC blade. The angle at the tip is extreme compared to the rest of the blade, and the removed DLC makes it more obvious.

PS: Ben is a great guy, btw. Exactly as he appears in his videos. Used to see him around town occasionally and we would chat. Can't say enough good things about him. I live about 90 mins away from his shop now. I could also ask if he'd be willing to help me out with this.

Angle change has nothing to do with being perpendicular to the the stone or pivot. It's a common misconception (and one that I made too... as the triangle distance changes, the angle HAS to change, right?) (It's come up enough that I wrote a blog post about it... just so I don't have to keep tracking down the links and photos).

You WILL see an angle change as you go around the belly toward the tip, but thinking that this area must be right in front of the pivot to keep everything "the same", may be what's causing your issue. On some knives, having the belly/tip area off the edge of the blade table, and/or even tipped down, will help.

Also be aware that the bevel getting wider in the belly/tip area may not be because of angle change... it can also get wider because this area moves into thicker steel.

Marking a blade with a Sharpie, then setting the knife and/or angle based on the belly/tip area... may give you an overall better result.

Edit: Also, while I'm not a fan of the mod... some users have added magnets under the blade table, to help hold the knife steady... something you may want to look into if this is part of the issue (since you mentioned wondering why there was no clamp).

 

[Wowbagger]

be aware that the bevel getting wider in the belly/tip area may not be because of angle change... it can also get wider because this area moves into thicker steel.

My Gayle Bradley is more accurately ground than my other blades as far as thickness and is hollow ground. I didn't have this widening near the tip with it . . . that surprised me . . . but find that it happens on most of my other lesser knives.

PS: I use the magnet part of the time especially if it is a knife that seems to need it to hold the knife in place. The EP does not have a clamp because it would get in the way of sharpening smaller knives (slip joints etc.) and the clamp gets in the way of sharpening to shallower grinds.

I am all about narrow blades like on the Case Trapper and I am all about shallow sharpening angles. The Edge Pro really does it for me and I am thankful for it. Knife life sucks without it.

My latest trapper I reprofiled on the EP to a very shallow grind. The knife has been EDC'd for the last two weeks everyday at work and the edge is holding up exceptionally well. I have touched up the edge and debured it using Shapton Pro stones (5,000 and 8,000) by hand and the Spyderco Ultra Fine Triangle rod hand held so I am no newbie to hand sharpening . . . I still prefer the EP.

 

[db]

Also you could look at a cheap Harbor Frait belt grinder instead of the paper wheels. Get a few belts and most importantly a leather belt. Or do what I did after my HF grinder took a crap get a better 1x42 belt grinder and never look back.

 

[DavidHoback]

As Wowbagger said, the EP doesn't use a clamp as it would get in the way. I figured that out when I built my own EP "style" sharpener. Neodymium magnets are the answer. I used and was quite fond of the EP for many years. I figured out the fix to your problem early on using it. I found it was all about blade placement. I could get even bevels to the tip with every knife I sharpened. But I had to switch to something else when an motorcycle accident paralyzed my left arm/hand. I used the WS for last couple years, but the stone finished edge called me back. So I made my own, and immediately learned that magnets are a great hold down, that allow down to an almost 0 degree bevel.

 

[RipD]

Angle change has nothing to do with being perpendicular to the the stone or pivot. It's a common misconception (and one that I made too... as the triangle distance changes, the angle HAS to change, right?) (It's come up enough that I wrote a blog post about it... just so I don't have to keep tracking down the links and photos).

You WILL see an angle change as you go around the belly toward the tip, but thinking that this area must be right in front of the pivot to keep everything "the same", may be what's causing your issue. On some knives, having the belly/tip area off the edge of the blade table, and/or even tipped down, will help.

Also be aware that the bevel getting wider in the belly/tip area may not be because of angle change... it can also get wider because this area moves into thicker steel.

I also made this assumption, and get why it's wrong. But no question my angles are changing as I move along a blade. It's clearly do to the width of a blade changing along it's distance. As the blade width changes so does the height relative to pivot point of the arm, which changes the angle. Hence the angle change around the tip of a drop-point blade.

Good point on tip thickness - had not considered that.

Marking a blade with a Sharpie, then setting the knife and/or angle based on the belly/tip area... may give you an overall better result.

Edit: Also, while I'm not a fan of the mod... some users have added magnets under the blade table, to help hold the knife steady... something you may want to look into if this is part of the issue (since you mentioned wondering why there was no clamp).

I use a sharpie - very helpful. I have a couple of magnets. Sometimes helpful, sometimes not. And I get that a clamp would cause more problems than it would solve.

In my imagination there's a better option that would ensure consistent angles along a blade and follow curves well. The only options I know of that do this are V sharpeners, which have other issues. Not seeing the answer yet.

Also you could look at a cheap Harbor Frait belt grinder instead of the paper wheels. Get a few belts and most importantly a leather belt. Or do what I did after my HF grinder took a crap get a better 1x42 belt grinder and never look back.

I may try a grinder. A wheel makes more sense to me a from a control perspective. The play in a belt is another variable - slightly more pressure and you're over grinding. Doubt I would do the HF one. I'd want to mod it immediately to get lower the belt speed.

EDIT: also wanted to say thanks for all the replies and help on this. Going to take a more informed view of the EP and try again.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

I have paper wheels and at first I liked them but as time went on I started seeing their flaws.

If you like a nice flat edge bevel forget about the wheels right now. They will inevitably create a convexed edge eventually because there is nothing to hold a consistent angle, a round wheel has a small contact patch, and because you can't see what's happening at the very edge as the blade blocks your view unless you reverse the rotation which creates a more dangerous setup.

I also used the wheel with compound and no grit as a way to 'power strop' my knives as a way to touch up and maintain a sharp edge. It seemed like it was working well but even with just compound it started to convex the edge and after about 6 months I got a duplicate of my EDC which had seen the most wheel time and seeing them side by side quickly revealed how much metal I had removed along the edge. The sharpened knife was about an 1/8" narrower where the edge had been worn away and receded due to the speed and power and nature of using a power tool to remove metal.

I also think I had gotten pretty good at using them and it seemed like I was able to hit the very edge and get the angle right on the first pass and could bring back a razor edge in just a few passes on the compound loaded wheel. So it wasn't like I was just having to go to town on it each time I used it.

I stopped using them for the most part after seeing how much material I was removing. I was starting to get into 'super steels' and started sharpening more often to maintain the edge and discovered I could normally bring an edge back to tree topping sharp by stropping on 1 micron diamond. If the edge had dulled too much and this wasn't enough, normally a little time on a fine ceramic was enough to get back to rough shaving and the strop brings it back to tree topping. With the harder and/or carbide rich steels this is a pretty easy and quick process and actually seems easier than many of the more simple steels. It also leaves a pretty aggressive edge that seems toothy yet can whittle hairs especially if I move to the 0.5 micron diamond strop for a minute.

I do have an EP but haven't used it in forever. I really would only want to reprofile an edge with it and lower the angle but with the stock stones I have and the steels I'm using, it's a slow process that I haven't been interested in spending the time to do.

 

[db]

Very interesting points. As I really never do use my belt sander for basic touch up sharpening I don't believe power stropping with a leather belt on my grinder would take off a noticeable amount of steel. But it is nothing I've ever even thought about. Maybe I should put it to the test. Btw for just touch up sharpening I use a few different ceramic hones free hand.

 

[Wowbagger]

I also used the wheel with compound and no grit as a way to 'power strop' my knives as a way to touch up and maintain a sharp edge. It seemed like it was working well but. . . . got a duplicate of my EDC which had seen the most wheel time and seeing them side by side quickly revealed how much metal I had removed along the edge. The sharpened knife was about an 1/8" narrower where the edge had been worn away and receded due to the speed and power and nature of using a power tool to remove metal.

Now don't get me wrong I LOVE my power tools. Heck I have two metal cutting band saws, a fairly large wood cutting band saw I can resaw small logs on besides make precision veneer. Metal lathe, TIG welder . . . well you get the idea . . . yes an upright belt sander . . .
but
I can't understand wanting to use it to sharpen little pocket knives . . . maybe for stuff that gets big dings in the edge like when we go to the junk yard and take our machete . . . but . . . I don't do that too often . . . do you ?

COMPARED TO THE PAPER WHEEL ABOVE THE BELT SANDER IS GOING TO BE A KNIFE EATING MONSTER ! ! ! !

Who needs that to sharpen a well cared for knife ?

PS: Harbor Freight :thumbdn: :thumbdn: :thumbdn: :yawn:

 

[RipD]

I have paper wheels and at first I liked them but as time went on I started seeing their flaws.

If you like a nice flat edge bevel forget about the wheels right now. They will inevitably create a convexed edge eventually because there is nothing to hold a consistent angle, a round wheel has a small contact patch, and because you can't see what's happening at the very edge as the blade blocks your view unless you reverse the rotation which creates a more dangerous setup.

I get it. My machining experience agrees. A belt without a hard backing or a round wheel used freehand will have to convex a blade - no way around it. I would not use grit on a wheel unless I had a ton of knives to process that needed work. Seems like too much work and unnecessary in most cases. Power stropping for regular maintenance seems like it could be good. Your point about even no grit removing significant material is concerning. I need to reconsider.

COMPARED TO THE PAPER WHEEL ABOVE THE BELT SANDER IS GOING TO BE A KNIFE EATING MONSTER ! ! ! !

Who needs that to sharpen a well cared for knife ?

PS: Harbor Freight :thumbdn: :thumbdn: :thumbdn: :yawn:

Agreed - a belt is concerning. Especially with heavy grit and going as fast as the HF one. Lawnmower blades and axes no problem. A lot of care would be needed for a fine edge. I would be interested in finer grit belt, slower speed, or a leather belt for stropping. Never tried an HF power tool I was happy with. I sort of seem them as disposable demo tools.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

The paper wheels I have come with grit on one wheel that has wax ground into it. This wheel is for raising a burr on a dull knife. The wax helps lubricate and cool as the wax will melt which requires heat which it pulls away from the blade edge.

The other wheel has a thin slot cut radially about every inch or so. This wheel has a white compound that you apply a little each time you sharpen. I'm not sure what the slots are for though I could imagine the corner that is created helps pull the burr off and polish some and maybe also help scrape excess compound off the blade? But this wheel is for removing the burr created with other wheel and also polishes the edge to a hazy mirror finish and strops on the final razor edge.

The compound wheel is aggressive enough to bring back an edge that is still working sharp but not shaving sharp. So I used this to help maintain my knives instead of raising a burr which very obviously is removing a good amount of metal though it is needed if a knife is really dull. I just didn't realize the polishing was removing so much metal over time.

They may work well if you don't care about a shaving sharp edge and don't touch up your knives often. Or find another method to touch up knives like a traditional strop and maybe a ceramic stone or Sharpmaker and only use wheels when a knife gets dull.

 

[db]

Well the good thing about a belt sander is you have many different grits of belts to choose from. You can have it as a metel eating monster or a power leather strop witch I'd guess takes off nothing noticeable. I'm amazed at all the different belts available. Like I said before I don't use it for touchup sharpening but I have touched up a GEC 33 pocket knife on the leather belt after I was done using it on a bunch of kitchen knives and it worked great even as a touchup sharpener. 1 pass per side and that little slipjoint was sharp. Maybe if I kept my belt sander out and hooked up I may just use it as a touchup sharpener but I don't. I've also been told not to keep the leather belt on it when not using it as the leather could strech. Yup, I'm a big fan of my belt sander for sharpening.

 

[RipD]

FlaMtnBkr and db,

Good points and agree. I've been too busy (or lazy) to to maintain all my blades and end up sharpening because of it. Moving to a weekly maintenance routine for everything. 20 mins once per week and I can keep everything in good shape (I think). Fine ceramic or 2K glass stone for kitchen knives seems to work well. Not sure what yet for pocket knives. Million options and opinions - just need to pick one that works and use it consistently.

 

[kwackster]

The magic word when working with Paper Wheels is "fingerspitzengefühl".
Have you read the sticky about them, also here in MT&E ?

 

[RipD]

The magic word when working with Paper Wheels is "fingerspitzengefühl".
Have you read the sticky about them, also here in MT&E ?

Have not, but will. And that "finger sense" is kind of what I mean when I say I have a lot of machine shop experience. Not everything is about precision. I could very consistently put a bevel on a part using a belt sander. It helped that I did it 2000 times, but you learn to read the sensation of the belt with your fingertips. My hands knew to leave a part on longer when the belt was worn. I could tell how a band saw was cutting by feeling the vibration on the frame. Many examples... I get it. Practice and repetition have an amazing impact on sensation and response. (Practicing a musical instrument is an even better example.)