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EP - Shapton glass 1000 vs EP 600

Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by Bo-dacious, Nov 9, 2018 at 3:37 PM.

  1. Bo-dacious

    Bo-dacious

    408
    Aug 13, 2016
    Hi guys, Ive come to you guys multiple times regarding my 600 grit stones (one inch and half inch) not cutting. Theyre still not cutting (or at least not giving me a burr). Someone told me to bypass the 600 grit stone and buy a shapton glass 1000 grit. I just want to get confirmation that i indeed can go from 400 to the glass 1000 and still get a burr. Is this realstic?

    Anyone whos been following my problem and has any other ideas, they are very welcome.

    Thanks guys,

    Bo
     
  2. cbwx34

    cbwx34 Basic Member Basic Member

    Dec 27, 2004
    I'm not sure what the result of your other posts were, but if you look at the EdgePro Crossover Chart, (and my experience), the 600g EP stone is approaching polishing territory... so not sure why you're concerned with raising a burr at this point... you should be merely checking to see whether or not you're polishing the edge, and/or improving the sharpness/performance.

    To answer your question, (maybe), a 1K Shapton stone is more coarse than a 600g EP stone, so you could probably use it in place of the 400g EP stone... not after it... maybe even before it. (They'll be pretty close, depending on how you condition it). And yes, it will raise a burr easier.

    EP stones grit level don't "rate" the same as other stones... just like the chart shows. You might consider using the 600g stone with a different expectation of what to look for... (if the stone is turning 'black', it's doing something...).
     
  3. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    207
    Apr 28, 2017
    The burr from the 600 can be pretty fine. Another way to test if the stone is doing it's job is to see how much better the knife shaves after each grit.
     
    willc likes this.
  4. Bo-dacious

    Bo-dacious

    408
    Aug 13, 2016
    Well I normally get a burr at 600 grit so thats what i go by. Is there another stone that will replace the ep 600? Im getting swaf but it just never makes the knife sharp even after 1-2-3-4 hundred strokes. Some knives it works some it doesnt. Even after I level it. Ive tried raising the angle a few times with no luck. Its always the 600 and sometimes the 1000 that do it. The stone barely makes a sound when i do a stoke. Is thst normal or is taat a problem?

    The knife wont even cut paper without ripping it so it wont shave.

    Bo
     
  5. cbwx34

    cbwx34 Basic Member Basic Member

    Dec 27, 2004
    So I read thru your other most recent thread... it doesn't seem much different than what you're posting now... only you're hoping that maybe a different stone will make things better.

    That's not the answer. Like I said before, and what others said before, trying to raise a burr at this level isn't the goal. In fact, from your description here and before... you probably already have one.

    Drop down to whatever stone you use before the 600, and create a good clean edge that cuts well. If you can do that, and want to refine the edge, then move to the 600 and refine it. Forget about trying to "create a burr"... that's no longer the point. If you're matching bevels, you'll create one anyway... so work on edge refinement and proper deburring techniques.

    But another stone... that's not the answer IMO... you should be able to get a decent edge with what you already have.
     
    willc and Diemaker like this.
  6. Bo-dacious

    Bo-dacious

    408
    Aug 13, 2016
    Cbwx34: so you're saying I don't need a burr or there's is a different goal but you still need one? If I have a burr, it should be sharp, right? So there is another problem then. Should I be able to push cut printer paper with the 220 grit? Because it doesn't do that. I raised a burr at 220, should I do the 220 process again to get a better edge?

    Thanks,

    Bo
     
  7. willc

    willc Gold Member Gold Member

    957
    Aug 13, 2013
    Off the 220 the knife should be very sharp.
    Once I apex, get a burr on both sides, then I minimize the burr with super light strokes with the 220 and then refine the bevel to whatever the knife calls for.

    On subsequent finer grits achieving a burr is not needed and can move progress backwards.

    Also I normally use a 220 grit stone for reprofiling and damage.
    On a new knife I usually start with 500-1000 grit to take out factory grind lines.

    Whatever your first stone is the knife should be very sharp off of it before you go on.
    If you are using the EP your problem may be too much pressure.
    If you are free hand then most likely it is a consistent angle and pressure.

    Good lighting and magnification are key also.
    You need to see what you are doing.
    Sometimes I will do just one or two passes then inspect the edge many times just to make sure my angle is good.
    This is especially important when you sharpen different knives in one setting.

    Keep practicing and you will get it.
    Then when you do get it hair shaving sharp off your first stone slightly kill the edge on the side of your stone and do it again.
     
    cbwx34 likes this.
  8. Bo-dacious

    Bo-dacious

    408
    Aug 13, 2016
    willc: Ok, so if the knife is not sharp afteer 220 grit, what do I do? Go over again with the 220?
    If im not looking for a burr at 600, how do I know when to stop doing strokes on that grit?
    Ive been meaning to do a knife where I start with 400 or 600, but I dont know at which point I should move onto the next grit.
    What will happen to the edge if I use too much pressure?
    I dont know what you mean by "slightly kill the edge on the side of your stone"

    Thank you for the help!

    Bo
     
  9. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    207
    Apr 28, 2017
    The coarsest stone is the one you get the knife sharp with, as in remove any damage or dulled areas of the apex. Some stones are too coarse to do this with, they just are too rough to get a clean edge. Your 220 is not too coarse, it's about as coarse as you would want to apex with. After this all you are doing is removing the scratches left by the last stone as you go through the progression. After the first stone in your progression you are looking for increased sharpness and finer scratches, not so much a burr but that depends on the stone and steel. If your knife is not sharp after the 220 you need to figure out what you are doing wrong, more strokes is not really the solution.
    If you haven't tried sharpening a knife with too fine a stone to start with then do it. Spend 3 or 4 minutes and see how it is working, then drop down a step to a coarser stone and do the same. Keep at it until you find the stone that gets your knife sharp in a decent amount of time, this is the stone you should start with. The stone you should start with depends on the stone, the steel and how dull the knife is.

    I think the last two questions are somewhat related. The very apex of a knife is quite thin so it is a bit delicate. I think if you use "too" much pressure it will deflect the edge instead of cut it. You know what happens when you bend a piece of steel back and forth several times, it will weaken it and eventually break. I think this can happen to the fine apex of a knife. The lower the angle the more important this is. I think low pressure and micro bevels go a long way to improve edge retention, just my opinion. With this in mind removing the fine edge on a stone before sharpening removes this weakend steel so what you are left with to sharpen is "fresh" steel.

    Maybe a video of you sharpening a knife would help someone see what you are doing wrong?
     
  10. JJ_Colt45

    JJ_Colt45 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 11, 2014

    The way I found while learning sharpening was feel ... but that was many years ago ...

    now days a good way to tell is to get a good loupe and see the scratch patterns different grit stones or compounds leave ... and that will give you good indication of when to move to your next grit progression ...

    once you learn what a sharp knife edge looks like ... you will better know what you need to do to get there ... and eventually you will develope the "feel" with your stones and know when you're ready to move on.

    Good luck ... you'll get there just takes practice - JJ
     

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