Epic Steel Thread Resurrection

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Thanks, Esav.

I don't know anything about Mr. Stamp and didn't know of his direct attack on the owner of the forum.

I do see many fascinating exchanges in the thread.....such as this.

Originally Posted by olpappy
Quote: The results of that testing seems to go against the popularity of high carbide stainless steels over lower carbon choices with regard to edge retention.

"Yes, as there is much hype and little fact in that area."

Quote:
Wouldn't the CPM steels with finer carbides have less of a problem with carbides falling out of the edge?

"No, this is one of the greatest areas of hype. The argument ignores that the steels have so MUCH carbide that the P/M process does not produce finer carbides. The carbides in 12C27M are MUCH finer than those in S30V. Many properties are also based directly on carbide volume, Crucible themselves notes this in their patent articles. They state for example THEMSELVES that since carbide volume is one of the main factors in reducing toughness then using vanadium carbides instead of chromium carbides will increase toughness at a given wear resistance level because less vanadium carbides are needed. Note how Jerry opposes this generalization in the above claiming WITH NO FACTUAL basis at all that you can not predict based on microstructure and specifically carbide volume in spite OF THE MEASURED FACTS with prove otherwise."

Quote:
It sounds like most here can agree that S30V is tougher than other stainless steels but not quite as tough as some of the non-stainless steels.

"The first statement is nonsense propogated by some makers. There are many stainless steels far tougher than S30V."

Quote:
The real big surprise here for me is the question of whether 12C27 or 420HC could be better than S30V in edge retention!?

"Yes, this is MEASURED FACT not subjective opinion."
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I never heard this before and I bet there are a few others who haven't either. I do know that a number of experts duked it out on this thread for 18 pages and there is good information to be gleaned from it.
 
Cliff had a habit of using absolutes which made him appear authoritative. Unfortunately, not all of his absolutes were actually correct, though a good many were rooted in truth. Even more unfortunately, he could never admit any error or overstatement.

Buck does what it does. They do a few steels very, very well. IMO, it is better to do a few well, than to do many poorly. You do not see a lot of comments about poor heat treat or lack of uniformity of heat treat applied to Buck knives. I read such comments about many other companies.
 
it is better to do a few well, than to do many poorly.
Click to expand...

Of course, I totally agree......but who says those are the only two choices?

When I'm right.....I'm right.

:)
 
Quote:
It sounds like most here can agree that S30V is tougher than other stainless steels but not quite as tough as some of the non-stainless steels.

"The first statement is nonsense propogated by some makers. There are many stainless steels far tougher than S30V."
Click to expand...

This is classic Cliff Stamp. He takes the statement "It sounds like most here can agree" and morphs it to "nonsense propogated by some makers".

First of all, who were the "most here" in the questioner's original point? Second, how did Cliff extrapolate that to "some makers"? He wasn't an expert at all, he was a pretty good character assassin, though. He played word games at least as much as he analyzed steels.

Could some steels be better than S30V in edge retention? Cliff says, "Yes, this is MEASURED FACT ..." but we only have his word for that measurement. Did he use properly heat-treated S30V in the comparison? Ask him and he wouldn't answer.

He did not advance understanding with his grandstanding.
 
Actually, wasn't he referring to information that had come from Buck and was referenced earlier in the thread?

I'll have to take another look.

(?)
 
First of all, who were the "most here" in the questioner's original point?
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I think that was his impression from reading the thread.

I had the same impression myself.

The problem, I think, comes with definitions that are not precise, but that mentioned consensus did seem to exist.

There seem to be many shades of "tough" used pertaining to steel in the thread.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
This is classic Cliff Stamp. He takes the statement "It sounds like most here can agree" and morphs it to "nonsense propogated by some makers".



He did not advance understanding with his grandstanding.
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Well put Esav, thats the point of being here afterall isnt it?-thanks
 
Buck has 7 different steel options,just me but I don't think that's limited.:) One really good thing about Buck is they make knives that are affordable to just about anyone,without sacrificing quality!:D
 
No, Skyhorse......what's limited (as I have clearly stated several times) is that S30V is the only premium steel offered by the Custom Shop for 110s.

As to affordable knives, yes, I appreciate that just as you do.

:)
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Could some steels be better than S30V in edge retention? Cliff says, "Yes, this is MEASURED FACT ..." but we only have his word for that measurement. Did he use properly heat-treated S30V in the comparison? Ask him and he wouldn't answer.
Click to expand...

To be fair (he's not here anymore) he did answer. He cited several sources including Buck for such information.

Here's one:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421313

And another:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344902

Besides, I don't think the argument is about whether or not some steels could be better than S30V in edge retention.

Obviously, some could be and some are......it depends on a lot of variables.
 
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To be fair, I'm really not interested in scratching though one more Cliff Stamp thread. I'm really describing my frustration in dealing with him at the time, when he would disappear rather than answer a question he had been caught out on.
 
Me neither.......but he was just one of the major contributors, so there's no need to focus on him.

It was one of those donnybrooks that can yield useful information and be quite funny in some places.

A classic.

:)
 
BG42EDGE said:
Me neither.......but he was just one of the major contributors, so there's no need to focus on him.

It was one of those donnybrooks that can yield useful information and be quite funny in some places.

A classic.

:)
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Nonsense. Mis-information and overstatements are not useful. Arrogance is not useful either. Cliff was full of both. Do not repeat his mistakes.
 
Do not repeat his mistakes.
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What? Like you're doing now?

As I said, he was only one of the experts that contributed a wealth of information. Subtract him, if you have issues with him, but there IS plenty of thought-provoking information and hard data (besides some entertaining opinion) contained in the 18 pages of that thread.
 
gee.. i hate to give the OP any material to play with
this is jest my gross thinking with out any facts!
i can see why he likes that thread..
it is right up his ... ugh.... back alley.. type of posting
to raise a ruckus..
while some data is there and it seems to be good -
the thread is pain full to read..

you had several guys discussing steel
as we all like to do and low and behold .
.there is much postulating that this supports my thoughts and your are junk..

it degrades in to a free for all with many throwing in what ever they can to
hurt the other guys post stateing like there belifes a fact..
and it gets to personaly bashing that should have been in the cove
the OP here seems to be wanting to re-establish that kind of free for all
here in buck forums .. we dont need that here..
thread reported..
 
Another interesting exchange: And done without the "bashing" some claim.

Originally Posted by Nimravus Nut View Post
I do not agree with Cliff about 440a being better in edge holding than 440c ...

"As I said, I never said that, that statement is undefined. I stated 440A has better edge stability than 440C. This will mean it has better edge holding in certain applications, specifically it will hold a high polish at lower angles for longer."

Quote:
The general point I'm trying to make is that S30v is hard to heat treat and it's even harder to get it right to make it tough enough for a large chopper.

"This is a line of hype propagated to respond to the complaints. The reality is that the steel was designed and promoted for EASE of heat treatment and toughness, specifically compared to 440C."

Quote:
Originally Posted by knarfeng
Now if I remember correctly from the micrographs I've seen posted, ATS34 has far bigger carbides than S30V. So if ATS34 is good at 30° inclusive, S30V should be also.

"It depends on the carbide volume as well as CATRA tests generally take blunting to such an extent that they favor wear resistance over edge stability. They are also not well correlated to cutting by people as has been known in Germany for over 50 years."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimravus Nut View Post
could this be the reason why S30v is getting so much negative reports...?

"No, the main reason is that it was overhyped far past its actual ability."
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Personalities aside, it seems that this thread is about people searching for the truth about steel.......and trying to cut through a lot of misinformation promulgated by the people who make and sell knives.

Nothing wrong with that......in fact, it's commendable.

Myself, I want the truth and it's sometimes very hard to find.

Of course, if you don't want to learn more about steel.......no one is forcing you to read.

:thumbup:
 
Dave said:

you had several guys discussing steel
as we all like to do
Click to expand...

The difference, as I saw it, was that these (ten or so) guys were knifemakers and steel experts......and so, most of us could learn from their discussion.

I sure can, I know that.
 
Great. Take it to the General Knife Discussion, where we discuss steels,
and stop jamming up the Buck forum with Stiff Clamp's ghost.

This is where he got real stupid:
"This is where Bladeforums shows how far it has degraded since Turber left."

falling off a cliff
he stamped his foot
on empty air

pushed the pedal to the metal
and he said it wasn't fair

driving like that all these years
it never happened yet
but now the day has come
when our boy has lost his bet

when you get to the edge of a cliff
stop
 
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