Ergonomics

[jdm61]

Another master that has not beem mentioned is Bill Moran. Having attempted to make several ST24 type knives and actually succeeded once or twice, I can honestly say that the handle design for that particular knife is amazing. It is so ergonomic that I could tell just by grasping it if I still needed to sand down even the tiniest spot anyhere around the palm swell.

 

[Lorien]

I feel a little foolish mentioning two out of many dozens of high end cutlers, when it comes to handle design.
There is lots of great stuff out there, but due to my newbyism, I wouldn't even think to mention the likes of Loveless, Moran and Scagel, et al. Not that I have ever, and maybe never will, have one in my own hand. You're right, Mr. Lovett, Loveless should be getting some face time on this thread, if anyone should! Moran, too, as I've seen some of his knives in Dr. Darom's book, which look fantastic, yet I don't see many makers copying the handle I see on his ST24 model etc.
I would definitely give a huge nod to RJ Martin as well, having seen some of his earlier knives, one can certainly see that hand comfort and efficiency has always been a priority for him.
I still have a lot to learn:thumbup:thanks you guys for helping

 

[Lorien]

oh, one more thing- I haven't heard mention of folding knives yet in this thread.
There must be some makers out there who really stand above the rest when it comes to ergonomics. One that pops into my mind is Ken Onion.

 

[jdm61]

I feel a little foolish mentioning two out of many dozens of high end cutlers, when it comes to handle design.
There is lots of great stuff out there, but due to my newbyism, I wouldn't even think to mention the likes of Loveless, Moran and Scagel, et al. Not that I have ever, and maybe never will, have one in my own hand. You're right, Mr. Lovett, Loveless should be getting some face time on this thread, if anyone should! Moran, too, as I've seen some of his knives in Dr. Darom's book, which look fantastic, yet I don't see many makers copying the handle I see on his ST24 model etc.
I would definitely give a huge nod to RJ Martin as well, having seen some of his earlier knives, one can certainly see that hand comfort and efficiency has always been a priority for him.
I still have a lot to learn:thumbup:thanks you guys for helping

You don't see people directly copying the ST24 handle, yet you see many "varations on the theme".

 

[Lorien]

true that, but I suspect that we will soon be seeing more and more direct copies of Moran's designs. I think the 'tactical' is played out and that many makers are going to go back to the basics and start doing it old skool again. That's my humble take on the constantly shifting world of fashion.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Bob Loveless is the man you are referring to. Great designer! Took the best aspects of the Marbles hand axe and applied it to knife design. Worked with Thomas Lamb, I believe, and created the two finger groove handle. Would need to check his book for the proper name, but I believe it is something like the Lamb Utility handle.

Having said that, I believe that in the last 20 years, makers have refined, refreshed and modified handle designs, some of them even improving on what Mr. Loveless started. Having handled many of Bob's knives (not as many as you, I'm sure, Mike!) I believe that I have improved upon his handle design in small ways. Some may agree, some not. I'm willing to bet that Bob Loveless felt the same way when he created the handle for the dropped hunter.

Most of my handles still incorporate a palm swell and the drop at the back for pinky leverage. That's all Bob Loveless, no doubt.

Very well put RJ! Yep, we all try to include a bit of our own thoughts into our work. Most times it works out well. I wish more makers understood what a knife was for, and how to use it. I think we would see a lot more innovation!

While the ST24 is very recognizable, and feels RIGHT to many, with my smallish hands, it fells terrible to me personally. It is a design that needs to be sized to the individual it is being made for. To cover a wide array of hand sizes, and methods of use, is another mark of Bob's Genius. And to be used for decades by very picky users, not to mention to be the basics of so many or all our works. Both Stock Removal and Blade Smiths alike, to me, Speaks Volumes .!:thumbup:

Now I've got to head out to the Shop. I've got 7 1980's and 1 1990's Loveless Drop points to grind tonight. Which of course are the Lovett Loveless connection Knives. Bob watches over my work closely. I'll carry a few more out to Riverside for his inspection latter this year.

Sadly, 2 to three at the most is all I can complete in a 6 day week. Mostly two. Guess I'll stay poor, but I'm having a great time!!!

Mike

 

[Michael Lovett]

Double Post

 

[jdm61]

Very well put RJ! Yep, we all try to include a bit of our own thoughts into our work. Most times it works out well. I wish more makers understood what a knife was for, and how to use it. I think we would see a lot more innovation!

While the ST24 is very recognizable, and feels RIGHT to many, with my smallish hands, it fells terrible to me personally. It is a design that needs to be sized to the individual it is being made for. To cover a wide array of hand sizes, and methods of use, is another mark of Bob's Genius. And to be used for decades by very picky users, not to mention to be the basics of so many or all our works. Both Stock Removal and Blade Smiths alike, to me, Speaks Volumes .!:thumbup:

Now I've got to head out to the Shop. I've got 7 1980's and 1 1990's Loveless Drop points to grind tonight. Which of course are the Lovett Loveless connection Knives. Bob watches over my work closely. I'll carry a few more out to Riverside for his inspection latter this year.

Sadly, 2 to three at the most is all I can complete in a 6 day week. Mostly two. Guess I'll stay poor, but I'm having a great time!!!

Mike

LOL....Mike, I cannot begin to tell you how happy I will be when I can actually complete 2-3 remotely servicable knives in one week As for the ST24 handlke, I also have small hands so I size mine accordingly. Interestingly enough, you see some variation on the real ones too. As for your comments about Mr. Loveless, like they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Aspects of his designs can be seen everywhere from the cheapest Wal Mart skinner to super expensive customs. I think that what guys like Moran, Loveless and a select few others did was amazing because they didn't have anyone to copy directly other than maybe some old designs to give them a little bit of inspiration as to what to do, and perhaps more importantly, what not to do. They made stuff that worked and continues to work even to this day. To me, they are like what Chuck Berry was to rock and roll guitar. Guys may play cleaner and faster, but they are still just riffing off of Chuck about half the time.

 

[Lorien]

Michael-
is it possible for you to name and describe the elements of the Loveless designs which makes them so useful?
What is it that makes them work, and how are they made? Is there a procedure?
Thanks in advance!

 

[Michael Lovett]

Yes Lorien, I can do it, and would greatly enjoy doing so. I feel that it would enlighten many.

There are very definite procedures the Loveless Shop, (and I use).

I must admit though, I am a bet wary of posting it on Blade Forums. Not because I am afraid any one would use to information on their own knives, Quite the contrary! That would be a good thing. But I will no doubt be flamed if I do so.

No matter which procedure I outline, or why we do it. Especially If I show the results, and what these results accomplish for the end user. No doubt, some one will take it as an insult, saying that that isn't the way so and so makes them, and they work just fine.

I've touched on this before. And got seriously blasted for it! All I can say is that what we do is very labor intensive. I could cut the time in half on a Lovett-Loveless Connection Knife by skipping these steps. And to top it off, the Knives would look crisper, and more photogenic. It isn't until you hold on in the hand, especially while doing the same with so many others that what Loveless had in mind is so apparent.

The truth is, the human hand can adapt to many shapes. Thats a good thing for all of us. But like a Fine Shot Gun,. We want the Knife adapted to you. Not the other way around. That is what the Loveless knife, and the by design, The Lovett-Loveless Connection Knives are all about. I Dare say that our knives are some of the very few knives designed with this priority put first and foremost. With Looks coming in third, behind performance.

Many will say, I don't get it, why are Loveless Knives so valuable. So and so makes a prettier knife! And they are exactly right. On both counts. There are prettier Knives out there. Thousands of them! That is partly the point, Nothing really sets many of them apart. True-fully enough, most collectors really DON'T get it. Only someone who uses a knife hard, for hours on end, day in, and day out, could ever appreciate what we strive for. This is not to put collectors down. Just pointing out that most collectors collect for beauty, or investment. Rarely do they know anything at all about the real nuts and bolts of Knife Making. It is so rare for even Knife Makers to "GET IT" that Bob had this to say.

Quote: "Finally some got it right-someone finally understands WHY WE DO THE THINGS WE DO WITH OUR KNIVES". "Not just a copy for copying sake, but for a reason". Now maybe some can afford to use a Loveless again". It was never my intention that they become "Collectors Items" Never to be used." "Good Stuff Mike"! R.W. Loveless-2004

That my friends is more honor than all of the awards at any and all of the Shows, could ever give me.

Now back to the Shop. It's 4:16 AM. Do you know where your knives are?

Mike

 

[Lorien]

Hi Michael, I sincerely do want to know what goes on behind the scenes when it comes to your and Bob's design/making of knives. It will likely be a long time or a lucky break before I actually am able to try one out for myself.
If someone has something to complain about, maybe they could go take a douche before they start typing
Please Mike! How do you do it?

 

[Michael Lovett]

I wish I could answer your question. As I feel strongly about how and why we do it. But it would just get me in trouble!:foot:

Mike

 

[Lorien]

I'll take a pm... Dontcha worry about getting my panties in a knot- I'm goin commando
ya, I'm a little weird

 

[annr]

I can't speak from the context of custom makers as I only own 1 custom puukko knife, but I do place a strong emphasis on ergonomics when I review a knife. Here are a few things I've noticed in smaller knives used for cutting. Note I generally review folders, but a lot of what's said applies to all sorts of knives and tools in general really.

1. The distance from thumb to point, as well as how far the point drops below the thumb play a big role in tip control.

2. The closer the handle gets your hand to the cutting edge the better. This increases control during cuts and has obvious benefits in regards to leverage.

3. The butt end of the handle is tricky to get right. Having a poorly design shape or a handle that is too short or long can cause discomfort or make your hand not feel supported enough during heavy cuts. Having too much curve where your fingers rest can bite into your hand, having too little will make the knife not feel secure while cutting.

4. Thumb ramps can be very good or very bad. If properly design they work well to enhance cutting control and grip security. If poorly implemented when I try to use them my hand can cramp because of too little space for my grip or I simply won't have anywhere comfortable to place my thumb, causing me to get rid of the knife or reshape the handle.

5. The more specific the handle shape, the less comfortable other grips often are. If a knife is heavily indexed for finger placement and designed solely around saber grip, chances are other grips will lack the high degree of comfort saber grip offers. More general grip shapes like a Mora, SAK, Kershaw Leek or the Spyderco Centofante excel in various grips for this reason.

6. It must be hell as a knife designer trying to make handles that fit the huge range of hand shapes and sizes, finger lengths and grip styles.

I couldn't believe it when I logged in and saw this among the "new posts"! I had just gotten back from the Dr. getting treatment for wrist and elbow pain mostly associated with the use of some of my knives. Vivi I agree with almost every point you raise.

The Dr. basically said that I should stop using the knives. These knives are about the best in their class for my occupation and I'm not sure that there is a viable substitute that won't have its own problems. Two are fixed blades and one is a folder.

I have seen some of the names in this list but my knives are a different style. If I posted pics would any of you be willing to take a look and suggest someone who might be able to work with me to modify the handles?

 

[Michael Lovett]

It would take pages to explain what we do, and why we do it. And as you can see Not much of anyone is interested. And even if they were, few would understand what was said. It's almost entirely about looks and out spending the other guy here. I have seen very little real understanding of what knives are for, other than collecting, and hoping to make a profit on.

Here is the "VERY Short course. We use what is called the Slack belt technique. It was developed by Bob Loveless. Not many know it but it was Bob who brought the Belt grinder into mainstream in the early years. We all mostly used the Wilton, or earlier Olympic Square wheel grinder following Bob's lead. He later helped Bur-King develop the 960 Knife making machine as they called it. A really solid and quiet grinder. Stephen Bader followed, but is wasn't until he Brought out the Bader III, designed by George Herron,(A Very Good Friend of Bobs), that it became a really good machine. Rob Frinks Machine, is a beefed up, slightly redesigned version of the Bader III.

Back to slack Belting. Once we get the general profile ground into the handle, making everything symmetrical, (This is where most makers start polishing with finer, and finer grits. Not changing the as ground shape. Makes ever thing look crisp, and is a much faster way to make a knife), The real work starts. We move over to a slack belt made with flexible backing to match the contours. Ever thing is is deburred. All sharp edges are broken. More contouring takes place now. Shapes you cannot get with a wheel or platen. It may look similar, but the sharp eye will catch the differences.

Once all sharp corners are rounded, we blend the guard to the grip, with a smooth flowing curving radius. Once again. You have to look to see it, but it is there. Same with the palm swell. We want a smooth transition from the palm swell to the concave behind it to the sheep's foot butt. With the grinding wheel we have already started the concave. As stated before, most just use different grits on the wheel before polishing, or hand finishing. We want to both break the transition between The palm swell linearly to the rear, and just as importantly, blend top to bottom. This changes the feel and look from 2 dimensional to 3 definitional. The feel in the hand is very different.

When you look at many of the knives with the swell, you see a very defined line between the swell, and the concave. This shouldn't be there if ultimate feel is what you are after. When you look at a Loveless, or Lovett in a picture, you will see this crisp line. Just like ever one Else's. But in our case it is a trick to the eye brought on by the lighting for the camera. If you see the same knife in different positions, or in person, you will see the breaking line between the two change as the knife is moved under the light. This is what I mean by 3 dimensional. Most knives the line is just that. A definite hard line separating the two. It looks fantastic in a picture. Very appealing. It feels like Crap in the hand!that line has to go.

Same with the face of the guard. The face is smooth and very slightly rounded where the 90 degree angle is that transitions to the side of the knife. Same with the ears, or quillions. Why, well it doesn't rip a hole in freezing hands if you slip when field dressing your game. A sharp corner hurts like hell when scraped across frozen fingers. As a side benefit, it doesn't tear up your sheath when pulling it out, and putting it back in. Not only does it save the looks of the sheath,, but more importantly it protects the cam we build into the sheaths. A sharp guard will wreck a welt cam in a pouch sheath in just a few presentations. You will notice that the tips of out guards are both radius-ed and softly rounded, Not simply ground flat all the way around the quillion. This takes time and patients. It is a fine line between muted and soft contours.

Same with the Butt of the knife. The rear of the butt isn't flat. And the edges are ground and polished in such a way, that One, it doesn't damage your hand when applying pressure on the butt of the knife to force the tip into something, and secondly., if yo should drop your knife, you don't want that expensive handle material chipping, cracking, or splitting. The angle we put on it helps the deflect when dropped rather than catching and getting what would usually be more damage.

This is just a very brief outline of just a little of what we do different . And a few of the whys.

There are a few tricks used on the points of the knives for strength. Tricks in the ricasso for strength. The guards. It just goes on and on. There really is a difference! There really is a reason why a Loveless is so Special. Even down the the finish on the blade. It all has an exact reason. Nothing there is just of looks, or to sell a knife. But rather to help it feel good in the hand, and give generations of faithful service. Hell it even feel good when bored in a tree stand an hour before dawn.

Bob says that a Loveless Knife should feel like a piece of your own anatomy in your hand :jerkit: , Comfortable and pleasingly familiar when ever you grip it. In any position you use it.

As a Knife Maker, It's a damed good thing that I'm ambidextrous! Just look how long it took to try to explain just some of it. Can imagine how long it takes extra to make a knife this way?

It has been said that the final 5% in the finishing of a finely crafted piece takes 95% or the time. So many simply skip this. Truly fine craftsmanship is what separates a Fine Shot Gun from a Wall-mart special. A Roll's from a Chevy, A fine watch from a Timex.

Shouldn't it be what separates a Hand Crafted Knife from what you can but at any gun shop? Too often we let the engraving, anodizing, Damascus, file art, mixed metals, or exotic handle material guide our decision. It is wonderful to love these things. But learn to look at the craftsmanship first, the flash second. I have seen any and all of these thing used to camouflage so-so to down right terrible workmanship. At a recent show, where I and two others were Judges. One of the Judges Owned a materials supply co. All he could see was the flash! The trinkets. He might as well have been a black bird. We had to educate him on what to look for in the fit and finish of a well crafted knife. And he had been around Custom Knives, and going to shows for years. No names here. Most of you know him!

I worke all night again, I'm going to go play with my Knife.

 

[Lorien]

That's awesome Michael!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: I really enjoyed reading your post.

You really did open my eyes to some things I had never spent much time considering, but that I have always felt to be true.

I spend a lot of my time- almost all of it- around mechanical things. Sometimes they are knives, but most times they are hand or power tools for fixing bicycles, and bicycles. I have a lot of mechanical aptitude, as a professional technician. I notice when things aren't quite right, because I use them a lot!

Being a cyclist, ergonomics is something I spend a lot of time thinking about and as a bike shop owner, consider carefully for the benefit of my customers, who, like many collectors of knives, want the best but don't really know what 'the best' means. Sometimes 'the best' has less to due with the dollar value or the materials, and more to do with the intended use. When was the last time I saw a titanium, beryllium or carbon fiber kickstand? Never! But you can spend $30 for a great one and $5 for a shitty one. They do the same simple job, but the better one is more pleasant to use.

A knife doesn't have a simple job as a tool to be used. As you said, Mike, the conditions for use, combined with the individual using it, defines the role of a knife, and if a knife's role is defined by pretty materials above functionality, I consider it to be designed for the maker's needs above the needs of the consumer. Don't get me wrong, knives as art have a very special place, but not all knives are made as such and if that's the case, should always take into account the needs of the user above all. In my opinion, or course.

Thanks again Michael.

 

[Lorien]

P.s- what exactly does 'go play with my Knife' mean anyway?

 

[jdm61]

!

While the ST24 is very recognizable, and feels RIGHT to many, with my smallish hands, it fells terrible to me personally. It is a design that needs to be sized to the individual it is being made for.
Mike

A bit of follow up. I was talking with Dan Farr and told him that I was essentially riffing off of the ST24 for some handle designs. His comment was that he liked the design because it seemed to work well with a lot of different hands sizes and grips. As I said before, I also have small hands and the ST24 style handle is one the most ergonomic that I have come across. To me, that makes up for it being kinda hard and time consuming for me to make and its "assymetrical" look. Different strokes, I guess By the way...I can't afford a Loveless, but I do have one of the burl handled hunters that Beretta sold a few years back. I'm not sure how faithful it is to the original design, but it does have a very nice feel to the handle.

 

[RogerP]

Joe - I definitely agree with you and Dan on the ST-24.

Roger