Ethical Question

etp777

etp777

Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Messages
2,259
OK, being rather new to the custom knife making bit, I don't have a bunch of profiles/old designs of my own sitting around to copy or steal from. But I have been floating around various knie sites, and looking through my catalogs to try to get ideas/starting pons for whole knives, blade profiles, etc. For instance, right now, making a knife based, to a greater or lesser extent, on a Schrade Old Timer hunting knife I used to have.

My question is, is there anything wrong with this? SHould I feel bad, or stop it, or is this alright. I didn't just copy the knife design verbatim, I changed the blade profile some, am using a different material for the handles, etc. So should I stop this, or is it alright?

Of course, if I ever make something that looks even close to a custom design that I am knowingly working from, will get the makers permission first, just for courtesy's sake, but wondering whta thte sorta unwritten rules are on this whole thing.
 
Well, I think that, since you at least had the decency to wonder about it, that you're on the right path. A true cad would never think twice about stealing a design.

That said, from what you're describing, I don't think you've done anything wrong. Heck, I think we all base designs, at some level, on things that we've seen, or regional items that we like. Whether you like the shape of a Chris Reeves Shadow IV, and you build a tough spearpoint based on it, or you just have a hankering for something Persian, so you make a Katar, you're doing what you've described.

The only time I'd think you would run into grief would be if you go to the Blade Show, and have a table full of these things, marketing them as original designs. THEN, you're crossing the copyright/trademark line. It's okay to copy a design...heck, sincerity is oftentimes the sincerest form of flattery--look at how many knives are made in the "Randall" pattern, or the "Moran" style. What is NOT cool is to make an exact copy of a Buck 110, and then sell it as YOUR "EDC Special Carry". Anyone worth their salt will recognize that pattern and bust you on it.

Example:

Joe Knifeknut: So, what'd you bring to Spirit of Steel, this year?

You (picking up the EDCSC from above, and offering it for examination): Well, this is one that I've been working on. I've done a good bit of research, and worked up a really comfortable, solid pattern for a lockback.

JKk: Hmm. Looks a bit like the Buck 110.

You: Funny, you're the 15th person who's been to the table that said that...but nope, this one is my own design.

JKk (pulling out his 110, and holding it up to compare): So, what makes it so different?

You: Oh, er...uhm...it's black.

JKk: Oh?

You: Yeah. It's tactical.

JKk (handing the EDCSC back and wandering off in mild disgust): Hey, look...Jerry Fisk is giving a forging demo...!

Whereas it COULD be more like this:

JKk (saunters up to the table): So, what's new?

You (offering EDCSC): Well, I've done up my version of the ever-popular Buck 110. Made a few little changes here and there, and I'm quite pleased with how it's come out. Take a look.

JKk: Hmm...it feels a little smoother than mine.

You: Yeah, I put a bearing in the pivot. Sweet, inn't?

JKk: Ooooh, I LIKE that...how much?


See the difference? As far as I know, nobody'll damn you for copying a design, as long as you're up front about it. Now, if you focus a business on doing NOTHING BUT copying other maker's designs EXACTLY, you'll get some raised eyebrows, and some heat, I'm sure (ESPECIALLY if you're undercutting their prices). But you wouldn't do that, now, would'ja?

Didn't think so. :D
 
Thanks for the quick response. :)

That's about what I was thinking/expecting,b ut I figured since this is something I'm new at, and is a culture in it's own, didn't want to start out stepping on any toes. :) So I'll make srue to take your advice to heart. :)

And I'm more of a fan of fixed blades anwyays, so even if I steal soemthing, doubt it'll be a Buck 110. ;)
 
I have made four. The first a Loveless design. The second a Larry Harley design. The third and fourth a D'Holder design. I call them after the original designer; for example: a D'Holder made by me.

My next will probably be another Loveless. Just give credit to the original designer when you present it as your own work.

I will remain with time tested designs until I feel myself good enough to design my own.

Roger
 
I agree that it should be flattering to have people copy their designs. The real test of a custom knife is in the quality. Design pays a part in it but Frost copies just about every design. They just aren't any good.
One of the reasons I make knives is that I want everything. Just can't afford them. I expect if I marked them as mine, they would be upset, but I don't.
 
Speaking from experience, I have had one of the bigger name makers take one of my designs, change the handle just a tad and then market it in one of the knife catalogs that you probably get in the mail once a month or so. There was no credit given to me, and it did upset me some. I tried to be flattered by it, but didn't have any luck with that. I do feel however, if the maker had credited me with the design, I would have felt a lot differently about it. I probably would have gotten an order or two out of it and I would have sent him a thank you note. Now I just want to give him a dirty look the next time I see him. :mad:
 
Baumr, the exact same thing happened to me, by the same company, I think. when I first got a computer and got on the cutlery forums, it was even advertised on a banner at another forum.:mad:
 
That was one of the things I really needed to hear, someone who had been hurt by something like this. Just puts a face on it, so I have that extra kick to make sure I don't do same thing.
 
Etp, I would not have minded if they would have, at least, mentioned my name. But this was a blatant rip off by changing one very small detail.
You will be hard pressed to come up with something original, at this early stage in your knifemaking career.
Find the blade, and handle you like, draw them out. Later, as you gain experience, you will see ways to make the design better, as you modify the design to fit your idea, you are starting to develop your own designs, and styles.
Just give credit where it is due, and you will have no problems. ;)
 
How abou tthis Mike, I promise I'll give credit if I steal one of your designs. Or at least mumble your name under my breath when I am asked where I got the design idea from. ;)
 
etp77,
When I first got my Coote grinder, after making lots of small pieces of steel from large ones, I saw that I needed ideas before starting. I used a bunch of plexi, that I had taken from a sign makers dumpster, and started copying every knife in the catalogs and magazines that had any intrest to me. After making a couple of dozen copies I started looking closer at what I was making and started changing them to suit myself. It wasn't long before what I finished didn't look anything like the picture that I started with.
Now I just hammer what looks good to me (and what I think others will want) and grind until it looks and feels good to me. I don't think I would have ever reached that point without first copying others.
I'm sure others start with a blank sheet of paper and disign without the pratice but I couldn't.
Still praticeing, Lynn
 
Just present it as a Mike Hull made by you. I think that's what Mike ment and I agree.

RL
 
I know rlniger. That was my attempt at a joke after a long week. :)

I'll always make sure to say who I stole a design from, unless I've changed it so much you can't tell where idea came from. I wn't step on any toes.
 
Originally posted by Lynn
etp77,
I used a bunch of plexi, that I had taken from a sign makers dumpster, and started copying every knife in the catalogs and magazines that had any intrest to me. After making a couple of dozen copies I started looking closer at what I was making and started changing them to suit myself. It wasn't long before what I finished didn't look anything like the picture that I started with.
Now I just hammer what looks good to me (and what I think others will want) and grind until it looks and feels good to me. I don't think I would have ever reached that point without first copying others.
I'm sure others start with a blank sheet of paper and disign without the pratice but I couldn't.
Still praticeing, Lynn
Click to expand...


_____________________________________________________
This is a better explanation of what I was trying to say.
This is the way most new makers arrive at their own patterns. Thanks.:D
 
Hi this is DaQo'tah

the answer is yes,,,

yes,,,,at times it is wrong to copy a design and sell it.

but, if you just make it for yourself, then it's still a bit wrong, but its not likely to get you in trouble...perhaps

I have made many things that are very copy-right protected (my website daqotahforge.tripod.com) and Im always getting letters from lawyers telling me not to sell them and I so I dont.

Im breaking the law, but as Im not out after any money, then let it slide for now.

My advice is that you should make knife designs that are your own, that are not so very much just a copy of another's design that you end up getting emails from Lawyers .

Unless the knife/copy is just for yourself, then the amount of time and money it would take to take the knife away from you is too much to be worth it.
 
The simple truth, from my perspective, is if you're grinding out a few knives selling them in ones and twos and you give a certificate of sorts that includes credit to the original designer - okay. If I say its my design or allow those unknowing to think its my design, I've done wrong. A production house that sells it as your design when it is not is wrong. You, like I, am trying to learn. I want to learn how to make one before learning how to invent one.

After making my second knife I posted it on this site explaining that I stole (and that is the word I used) the design from Larry Harley. I had no idea he visited this site because I only saw his knife in a production house cataloge. A few days later he offered me a copy of the templete for that design. Should I ever become good enough to design something another wishes to make I will try to remember his kindness.

Carry on.

RL
 
The other side of this coin is ...
Most knife makers would pay me not to mention their name if I stole their designs!!!:D :D :D :D :D
 
Yes it is always a good idea to give credit were credit is due.If you see a pattern or idea that someone else has done and you want to try it then either ask or find out if it has been copyrited or if that person minds,but sometimes this isn't a possiability to do so then say that you did a reproduction in that style.Now on another note you will probably be able to find any style knife you can think of (fixed blade) somewhere in our past history but you won't know this untill someone says something.In this case you didn't have a way of knowing and thus can't get into trouble.So study knife styles and find what you like then add your own touches then say that you are doing these knives in a certain style and like to add your own style to it.I started making old style Bowie with my own touches about 4 years ago and now I get orders for reproductions that are as close to the original as possiable and since there are not allot of people doing this and it is really a challenge to reproduce these that they have become really fun and challenging to make.There was allot of things done in the old days that make you wonder how it was done and if you don't do it like they did then it doesn't look correct.
So I say find the style you like start making knives and give credit if you know who to credit and you will be fine,as long as it isn't copyrighted or a trademarked piece.
Bruce
 
Many years ago I went to a master bladsmiths shop,where he took orders for customn knives, and in his display was his masters test knife still flexed like a boomerang, and as i glanced aroud his awsome shop filled with power hammers and forges and buffers and grinders up the wazoo. I noticed on his wall of blade profiles for customers to choose from was the entire Engath collection to include there exact pattern numbers as the appear in the early Blades & Stuff. Im not sure how these were represented,but now that I think about it I saw no other patterns...So ill leave the conclusion to ya'll. Is this Wrong it seem so to me...but hey Im new...
 
FF, Bob Engnath said, I believe, in one of his catalogs, that when he went to shows and walked the isles, there were many "custom" makers who avoided his gaze. I will let you draw the conclusions.:eek: ;) :D
 
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