European Knives and 440A Steel - Why?

[Legendary_Jarl]

I have a few knives from Europe from the brands Aitor, Joker, Puma, Linder, Fox, etc. These brands are from different countries but it seems they use 440A across the board. Linder even uses 420 for some of their premium pieces. I was wondering if anyone knew the reason why? Is it because it is inexpensive or is it because it works well for them?

This is what I got from Linder today. Pretty nice!

 

[Hickory n steel]

Probably both.
Its inexpensive and works.

 

[aji1]

It's hardly "across the board". Knives from Europe use a wide diversity of steels; the Sandvik offerings are frequently encountered, for example, as are others.

 

[Lapedog]

I have a few knives from Europe from the brands Aitor, Joker, Puma, Linder, Fox, etc. These brands are from different countries but it seems they use 440A across the board. Linder even uses 420 for some of their premium pieces. I was wondering if anyone knew the reason why? Is it because it is inexpensive or is it because it works well for them?

This is what I got from Linder today. Pretty nice!

Part of it is they probably just need to get with the times. Part of it is probably that the majority of their customers don’t know squat about steel except it comes in two types, stainless and not stainless (surgical stainless is the best! Lol) Part of it is probably because it is easy to sharpen, extremely rust resistant and very tough.

Most of these brands are old standby brands and the majority of their customers are not real knife afficionados and just want a blade that won’t rust or break. The kind of people who never sharpen their knives once until the sharpening guy who rings the bell in the truck stops by. 440a isn’t THAT bad, its actually a pretty decent steel in the grand scheme of things.

If you think about it there are lots of American brands that are from an older time who do the same thing. Randall made knives use 440b. There are many up to date European manufacturers who use more up to date materials. Fox makes many knives that use more modern steels.

 

[tltt]

It works, it's cheap, and it isn't hard on the machines. That last part is a big one for many.

 

[Revolverrodger]

440A is pretty decent for most applications
Most people want supersteels but din’t actually need them for their usual tasks

 

[Hickory n steel]

As other have said 440a isn't exactly as bad as some people might think.
No super steel, but I have a colonial made knife that I'm told is 440a and it works just fine for me.
It takes a razor edge in no time on the bottom of a coffee mug and i don't exactly have to sharpen it every day.

 

[TheEdge01]

440A isn’t all that bad, it takes a screaming sharp edge very easily and is cost efficient.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

440A, B & C are all fine Steels if properly heat treated. 440A being the easiest to sharpen......Not everyone knows about or cares for whatever is deemed the latest “Super Steel” is....——/////———-In the 1960’s 440A B & C were the Super Steels and I use 440C for two of my Culinary knives.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Kershaw actually used to do some of the best work in 440A that I've experienced. The edge retention isn't stellar, but it's not really any worse than the low alloy carbon steels that a lot of people love.

 

[knarfeng]

440A can be heat treated to ~58 HRC. When so treated, it performs well enough for most folks. "Good enough is the enemy of better."

When US companies Schrade and Camillus made knives with stainless blades, the steel they used was 440A. According to the Schrade literature, they heat treated their "Schrade +" to 58.

 

[eisman]

The "need" for the latest steel alloy is mainly a marketing fad. Manufacturers need to have something unique or special to sell you on what is basically a sharp, pointy, piece of metal; something humans have been making for over 4000 years. I have knives that are over a hundred years old made from "old fashioned" steels that are perfectly usable today. I have a Puma that I picked up in Germany over 30 years ago, and carried all over Europe for years, with a 440a stainless blade and it's going to outlive me by a large margin.

You're better off finding a knife that fits your hand and your using requirements than worrying about the steel the blade is made from.

 

[Zuluninja]

I did wonder about that for some time, as I really like and collect knives from Spain, and have come to realize - they have been using it forever, it works, and they got the HT pat down to excellent results. I was just watching a video at the knife review section, a Cudeman BS-9 if you want to check it out (vid is in Spanish but the tests need no translation) and right off the bat they baton the blade thru a clay brick. At the end of the video the knife is still making feather sticks without a touch up sharpening, a blade made out of their ubiquitous MOVA steel. A well done HT is more important than the latest supersteel.

 

[Legendary_Jarl]

I did wonder about that for some time, as I really like and collect knives from Spain, and have come to realize - they have been using it forever, it works, and they got the HT pat down to excellent results. I was just watching a video at the knife review section, a Cudeman BS-9 if you want to check it out (vid is in Spanish but the tests need no translation) and right off the bat they baton the blade thru a clay brick. At the end of the video the knife is still making feather sticks without a touch up sharpening, a blade made out of their ubiquitous MOVA steel. A well done HT is more important than the latest supersteel.

Knives from Spain are great! I have a few Aitors and Jokers. I've heard of Cudeman before but haven't gotten one yet. Also seen Hen & Rooster, Muela & Nieto. I want to get one of those traditional Hen & Rooster knives.

 

[Etna]

Because it works, and it works extremely well for 99% of what a knife is meant to be used for.

I got a handful of no-name knives in 3cr13 and they cut just as well as my other knives in 440C or VG10. Just need to be sharpened a little more frequently.

Not everything has to be in S90V or CTS-XHP or <insert supersteel name here>.

 

[GIRLYmann]

Being frugal is something the old world is famous for.
It's just the way things are with keeping things cost effective...

 

[Dan of Bazz Clazz]

As others have said, marketing has worked overtime to convince the American knife buyer, that they need the latest super steel on their next knife. Hell, even the term "super steel" is pure marketing. We all have seen threads on BF where one party is extolling the virtues of steel X over Y because it has .1% more (insert favorite element here) and therefore gets far better edge retention and makes the user 50% more sexy too boot. Much to do about nothing. Like nearly everything with knives, it is a balancing act. Increased edge retention brings with it, harder to sharpen blades that require harder, and more expensive sharpeners, as well as an edge more prone to chipping in many cases.

Another intended marketing result is it creates the false impression that older steels are cheap, obsolete, poor quality, or not up to the task of what a knife has to do. Funny how they worked fine for 50-100 years before the new steels were developed. The new steels provide something to some so they can look down on it. New steels have their place, though I doubt that place is as broad ranging as the sellers would have you believe.

There are still plenty of buyers out there who would rather have the cash in their pocket than the latest steel in their knife. Who have tried a new steel and found they could not sharpen it on the whetstone they already have, or who simply expect to have to make a few passes on the stone to bring back the edge on a regular basis. For them a "super steel" will get dull too - a fact that leaves the impression that "super steel" is a lie. They were expecting "super sharp forever". The lie is magnified when they could not bring back the edge as fast as their old 440A knife / stone combination. For many, "super steel" means a knife that will still get dull, but then you can't sharpen it again because you don't have the "special machinery" the manufacturer used when making the blade in the first place.

As knife aficionados, We get wrapped up in the details and the minutia of knives. What to us is a benefit, is often a pain in the butt to the majority of knife buyers. Many on BF are proud that they have 10 different sharpening stones and 4 different sharpening systems for their different blades. We are the minority of the knife buying public.

 

[22-rimfire]

I think the majority of knife buyers simply want a sharp knife (out of the box). They generally want it to look nice. That is what sells them along with a brand name that they recognize (Boker or Puma for example). I bought a Puma SGB fixed blade because it caught my eye... hasn't even been used and it really doesn't matter that it is so called German made 440A. The steel used for the blade means nothing to them and that piece of information might as well be written in Latin as they have no idea what it means. It is the knife knuts that demand the latest and greatest steel and that is entirely a relative thing as in most cases it really doesn't matter very much for what they will use the knife for. Plus most knife knuts know how to sharpen a blade and often enjoy this aspect of the hobby.

 

[oldtymer]

I think the majority of knife buyers simply want a sharp knife (out of the box). They generally want it to look nice. That is what sells them along with a brand name that they recognize

Why more SAK knives are sold every year than any other brand.

 

[Etna]

As others have said, marketing has worked overtime to convince the American knife buyer, that they need the latest super steel on their next knife. Hell, even the term "super steel" is pure marketing. We all have seen threads on BF where one party is extolling the virtues of steel X over Y because it has .1% more (insert favorite element here) and therefore gets far better edge retention and makes the user 50% more sexy too boot. Much to do about nothing. Like nearly everything with knives, it is a balancing act. Increased edge retention brings with it, harder to sharpen blades that require harder, and more expensive sharpeners, as well as an edge more prone to chipping in many cases.

Another intended marketing result is it creates the false impression that older steels are cheap, obsolete, poor quality, or not up to the task of what a knife has to do. Funny how they worked fine for 50-100 years before the new steels were developed. The new steels provide something to some so they can look down on it. New steels have their place, though I doubt that place is as broad ranging as the sellers would have you believe.

There are still plenty of buyers out there who would rather have the cash in their pocket than the latest steel in their knife. Who have tried a new steel and found they could not sharpen it on the whetstone they already have, or who simply expect to have to make a few passes on the stone to bring back the edge on a regular basis. For them a "super steel" will get dull too - a fact that leaves the impression that "super steel" is a lie. They were expecting "super sharp forever". The lie is magnified when they could not bring back the edge as fast as their old 440A knife / stone combination. For many, "super steel" means a knife that will still get dull, but then you can't sharpen it again because you don't have the "special machinery" the manufacturer used when making the blade in the first place.

As knife aficionados, We get wrapped up in the details and the minutia of knives. What to us is a benefit, is often a pain in the butt to the majority of knife buyers. Many on BF are proud that they have 10 different sharpening stones and 4 different sharpening systems for their different blades. We are the minority of the knife buying public.

So much truth.

A sharp blade made out of 5cr13mov, 420J2 or even some mystery steel will cut through food, paper, rope, cloth, soft plastics and the flesh over your own bones as fluidly as one forged from S110V or CTS-XHP steel.