Ever worry about this?

D

Dixieblade57

Joined
Jun 20, 2007
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I have very limited space in my one car garage which is my workshop. Since I have a bad back everything in my shop is pretty much on wheels. This allows me to utilize space and I can also roll it around to clean and outside on a good day for better light.
I have been building a forge stand and will post some more pics when I get it finished. For right now here is a pic of the frame which should allow for you all to see what I am talking about.
(click thumbnail for larger view)


This is a pic of the cart looking from front to back. In the front there is a raised portion that this forge will sit on.




Since this cart is unfinished you will have to envision the finished cart somewhat. It will be pretty much wrapped in sheet metal to make the different sections divided.
In the lower back portion of the cart on will be a place for two propane bottles that will be used to power the forge, as can be seen by the rings welded in for the bottom of the bottles.

Directly in front of the propane bottles will be a wall that divides the lower back portion of the cart, where the gas bottles will sit and the lower front portion . The lower front portion will house a fire extinguisher and the rest of that area in the lower front portion will be divided into sections to store different steels.

The area directly under the tower (front upper area) will be utilized for PID controller and a few other bells and whistles. However there should still be enough room in this area to allow for my hammers and tongs to lie on a shelf created by the top of the lower front portion .

Now here is where the kicker comes in! I am also in the process of finishing a KMG clone and the area above the tanks could be used for this to sit on. That would allow great use of space and allow me a way to move the grinder outside on good days. The eyes aren’t' as good as they once were for fine work and the extra light comes in handy some days! The finished grinder and motor are pretty heavy just to pick up and move, plus I would need a stand to sit it on outside.

The area of my cart where the gas bottles sit would be basically divided off totally between the grinder and the bottles.

However with a gas leak does that really doesn't matter?

I guess the real question becomes how dangerous is it too have a propane bottle in the same room with a grinder throwing sparks?

Are the sparks from a grinder enough to ignite a propane leak?

How safe is a propane system once hooked up and checked for leaks?

If there is a leak anywhere in the propane hookup and whether you are sitting on top of it or not the gas is still can and will flow into the vicinity of the spark when you are in the same room!
So if this is potentially a problem! How do some of you explain that when I see pics of a lot of shops I see propane bottles setting around in the general vicinity of the grinders, or at least in the same room! :confused: Anyone got any constructive advice about propane tanks in the shop! I would love to utilize that space but don't want to make a potential bomb in the process.
 
Propane dissipates fairly quickly into air once it leaves the container. As long as you're not forging in your garage with all the doors and windows closed, I'd say you're safe. Plus, propane has a strong odor to it so you should be able to detect the leak fairly quickly. Of course, this is coming from someone who uses charcoal ;) so I'd get a second opinion on this. Just my 2 cents...
 
OBXC said:
Propane dissipates fairly quickly into air once it leaves the container. As long as you're not forging in your garage with all the doors and windows closed, I'd say you're safe. Plus, propane has a strong odor to it so you should be able to detect the leak fairly quickly. Of course, this is coming from someone who uses charcoal ;) so I'd get a second opinion on this. Just my 2 cents...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info! This is really not my first experience with propane.
However the when I got the idea of sitting the grinder on top of the Lower back portion of the forge stand.
Well lets just say that's when I begin to explore the thoughts of leaks and sparks from a grinder, and then I begin to think of the different shop pics show locations of propane forges not far from grinders. So then I began to wonder what the real risk was?
I know there are more propane forges running out there. So anyone got second opionions?
 
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Cover the gas lines with a metal cover like they use to fancy up car hoses or a piece of something like electrical conduit and no worries ever.
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Thanks my lines are protected but, the real question to me now that I have thought about it is leaks and sparks say from a grinder!
 
If you buy good fittings/lines you should have 0 leaks even after changing out the bottle several times. Make sure they are clean and tight and there should not be any leaks for many many years.
 
I wouldn't put them there. All the reasons you have proposed are valid....and the local codes most likely won't allow the bottles in the garage. Check with your local fire marshall, and see what the restrictions are for 20 pound gas bottles.

What I would do is put a 100 pound ( or larger) gas bottle outside, and pipe it in through the garage wall. Them use quick connect propane fittings ( Ellis has them) to hook the propane line from the forge to the gas fitting. You can order metal clad gas lines in many lengths and diameters. A 10-15 foot line with a metal mesh cover will be quite safe.
 
Hey Dixieblade,

Wow, that's one kick a$$ looking forge. The cart looks to be well thought out and constructed. If I understand you correctly, you're placing the forge on the top shelf; the grinder, PID and hand tools on the middle one; and the propane, fire extinguisher and steel storage in the bottom area, correct? I don't know the answer to your question, but have a few thoughts as to how I might process it if it were me. First, I'd follow my guts on the matter for sure. If you're in doubt ALWAYS "err" on the side of caution.

As far as I can picture it, if you mount your grinder on the middle shelf over the gas tanks, no matter which side of the cart the grinder sticks out of the sparks will essentially be thrown right at the tanks. Even if there are no leaks, that can still add up to a lot of heat in that general area. Why not move the grinder on the middle shelf to the other end of the cart? That would put your sparks and heat much further away. If you rethink where what goes keep in mind weight distribution across your cart.

I know that many of us have gas tanks in our shops, never-the-less, as far as I know, usually local building ordinances frown on that though. For instance, here in Honolulu propane tanks are supposed to be a minimum of 10 feet from buildings and other tanks. I try to keep a little spray bottle of soapy water nearby to check for leaks, especially whenever I change tanks or connections. To tell you the truth, I'm usually more nervous about my acetylene tanks and volatile vapor leakage from gasoline storage than I am about my propane.

Good luck and keep us posted. It'd be great to see how it all comes together. (I'm a big believer on putting stuff on casters and wheels too.)

All the best, Phil
 
I was thinking what Stacy said too about removing the gas storage from the cart altogether. Maybe you could have a connection outside too?
 
Ok Stacey, I appreciate the words of wisdom. I am not trying to put you on the spot here. I seem to remember a thread popping up some time back about making a forge stand out of a HF welding cart like this one………….

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90305

and mounting a propane bottle to the cart. I kind of remembered whoever was saying they had helped to build such a forge stand and that the next time they built one you would do a WIP. I have never seen the WIP and I am not even sure anymore that it was your thread or your contribution to the thread! So if it was not your thread I apologize in advance. Anyway this is where the original idea for this build popped up and I kind of expanded on making better use of the space.

I am kind of heavy into this build at present and can do away with the grinder mount to the same cart idea but, losing the gas bottles off of the cart will mean more space than I have available. I figure I could therefore roll the cart out of the garage when using the grinder but I really don't want to loose the bottles! Weight and portability are important with my back problems.
 
Farmer Phil said:
I was thinking what Stacy said too about removing the gas storage from the cart altogether. Maybe you could have a connection outside too?
Click to expand...

Phil I hear everything that you all are trying to say, believe me I do understand! And understand, I am not asking for advice then turning a deaf ear.

But in reality are we not talking about totally separating propane from the work area?

If the propane connection enters the work area, no matter the connection or the type of lines, (the possibility still exists for a problem with a leak and a spark ignition). However are we not making sparks hammering a piece of forged metal and this is done right at the forge usually.

I see lots of pics of similar stands and lots of pics with the bottles in the work area. I guess what I am trying to ascertain the true amount of the probability of creating a dangerous situation between the propane and a spark!
Heck I don't know maybe I am overthinking this whole thing!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:
 
Dixieblade57,
I can't give you technical advise, but do want to share, if you are the least bit uncomfortable with one setup as compared to another, do the other. You have advice frfom several makers who I respect as makers as well as having knowledge about a number of things....
As one fella said, always err on the side of safety...and comfort with the situation.
I know not much help but Be Safe!
 
I believe the difference between the tanks being near possible ignition sources verses piped in lines, is the presence of the tanks. It's one thing to have a leak at a connection ignite, it's another to blow-up a tank full of a combustible gas. One goes boom and scatters pieces of the person(s) and building all over the neighborhood. The other gives the person time to extinguish the flame. It looks to me like you've planned the forge cart out well to minimize risk. If you aren't already doing it, add some sort of leak detection scenario (like spraying connections with soapy water).

As you've mentioned many folks do some version of what you're doing. There's one such thread going on right now, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8127951&postcount=1. Here's the one you mentioned re Stacy's HF cart design, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=656115. (It was a bugga' to find! :))

If it were me, I'd probably put a separate cart together for the belt grinder, its tool arms, attachments, belts, grinding jigs/magnets, eye/ear/respiratory protection devices, etc. Maybe put a bench vise, bench grinders/buffers (stone-, wire-, scotch-, cloth-, paper-wheels) angle grinders, swing arm spot light(s), etc there as well? If you wanted, you could use the freed up space on the forge cart for a small welding buzz box of some kind and welding supplies etc.

Be safe and have fun! All the best, Phil
 
montana guy said:
Cover the gas lines with a metal cover like they use to fancy up car hoses or a piece of something like electrical conduit and no worries ever.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that is so. From some perspectives it might be considered safer to have a leak exposed to the open air, rather than trapped in an enclosed space. As I recall from my many informal and ad hoc "experiments" as a youthful miscreant, it was easy to make things go boom when combustibles were enclosed. :eek:

I believe those propane hoses are engineered from some pretty damage resistant rubber. On-the-the-hand, the connection lines don't have to be rubber. They can always be fabricated from copper tubing. Indeed, I believe they are suppose to be on the source side of the regulator.
 
Farmer Phil said:
I'm not sure that is so. From some perspectives it might be considered safer to have a leak exposed to the open air, rather than trapped in an enclosed space. As I recall from my many informal and ad hoc "experiments" as a youthful miscreant, it was easy to make things go boom when combustibles were enclosed. :eek:

I believe those propane hoses are engineered from some pretty damage resistant rubber. On-the-the-hand, the connection lines don't have to be rubber. They can always be fabricated from copper tubing. Indeed, I believe they are suppose to be on the source side of the regulator.
Click to expand...

You do bring up a good point. My train of thought was proper connections=no leaks and a hot enough spark hits a rubber hose it is going to melt through, does not matter what kind it is, so a metal guard from sparks is what I was thinking. But yes, trapped gasses do have the potential to explode. I have done a lot of work with all sorts of lines, air, natural gas, propane etc etc and if the fittings are right they don't leak. But ideally not having a source of ignition near any type of gas is always safest.
 
Farmer Phil said:
I believe the difference between the tanks being near possible ignition sources verses piped in lines, is the presence of the tanks. It's one thing to have a leak at a connection ignite, it's another to blow-up a tank full of a combustible gas. One goes boom and scatters pieces of the person(s) and building all over the neighborhood. The other gives the person time to extinguish the flame. It looks to me like you've planned the forge cart out well to minimize risk. If you aren't already doing it, add some sort of leak detection scenario (like spraying connections with soapy water).

As you've mentioned many folks do some version of what you're doing. There's one such thread going on right now, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8127951&postcount=1. Here's the one you mentioned re Stacy's HF cart design, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=656115. (It was a bugga' to find! :))

If it were me, I'd probably put a separate cart together for the belt grinder, its tool arms, attachments, belts, grinding jigs/magnets, eye/ear/respiratory protection devices, etc. Maybe put a bench vise, bench grinders/buffers (stone-, wire-, scotch-, cloth-, paper-wheels) angle grinders, swing arm spot light(s), etc there as well? If you wanted, you could use the freed up space on the forge cart for a small welding buzz box of some kind and welding supplies etc.

Be safe and have fun! All the best, Phil
Click to expand...

Yes, I fully understand about the enclosed gases being more lethal than the those allowed to dissipate if they were ignited! Thanks for the link to the forge stand made from the HF welding cart. It proves my memory is better than I thought! :D

My lines will be all copper except for the connection to the tandem manifold for the bottle hookup. If I use flex line at this point it will allow for easier bottle change.
I also have already made plans for a sprayer bottle with soapy water to be placed in the bottle area, so it should remind me to check connections after bottle change and for periodic check ups.
I plan on leaving the area for the bottles themselves open except for a top, to help protect the lines and the bottles themselves and a divider in front of the bottles.
Now as far as the grinder goes my gut has been leaning toward not setting it over top of the bottles except for storage. I may put my quench tank in this area.

I do appreciate the feedback on this subject and in no way where any of my responses intended to be the least bit inflammatory. I wanted to have an open dialog on the subject.
I think whether we are talking about propane or for that matter Oxy-acetylene welding tanks (“the mere use of such could be inheritably dangerous, if proper care is not taken”)!
For that matter the same thing could be said, (“the mere use of such could be inheritably dangerous, if proper care is not taken”) when we are speaking about those sharp pointy things we call knives! :eek: :D

As for the cart I will post pics when I finally get it finished. Once again thanks for the feedback!
 
Point 1: you can get so absorbed in forging that you don't notice a tiny leak at the top of the bottle, which just might eventually melt the regulator. Point 2: I don't think the fire code allows piped propane to enter a building at pressures higher than 11 water column inches, not enough to run a forge. Yes, you see a lot of shops with propane or acetylene near a forge, but that does not mean it is not dangerous. I think 12 feet is the minimum. Point 3: any sort of spark can ignite propane. Point 4: I think heat from a forge would be deleterious to the grinder motor. Point 5: The proposed rig is a burglar's dream. Put the grinder on a bench and chain it down. Finally, the reason they are called accidents is because they are accidental. Ask the famous American blacksmith who was badly burned a few years ago when his popane bottle tipped over inside the cherry picker bucket while he was in it up in the air and found himself standing in a puddle of fire.
 
I agree with separating the forge and grinder from the tanks as much as possible

Every tank is equipped with a pressure relief safety valve.
If the tank is full and heats up because of the heat that the forge throws off, there is a possibility that the tank will vent.

I was 100 feet away from a 100lb tank attached to a food service trailer that vented in the late morning as it heated up from the sun, likely being filled on a colder day just recently.
The noise alone scared the hell outta those around, but the tanks were outside and the gas didn't ignite, If it had though, it would have been pretty spectacular.

Separation of tanks and ignition sources...really good practice.
 
OK, I think you get the point that some of us don't really like the tanks under the forge/grinder. An open sided BBQ grill on the patio and an encased forge in the garage or driveway are two entirely different things.
The aftermath of an entire condo complex burning down ,followed by similar fire taking out half an apartment complex, has caused Virginia Beach to have tough laws on propane tanks for years. Many other cities have very similar laws now. The cause is almost always tanks rupturing because they were too close to the heat source.

The HT forge that I mentioned in a post a while back ended up being a bit too large for the welding cart ( unbalanced and unstable when rolling out of the storage area). It is now in its third (or fourth) generation of modifications,too. It will be mounted on a much larger cart when the new shop if built. It has ended up being what happens when an engineer's mind meets a tinkers hands. More on that in time.
I use a similar setup for a smaller forge, where a 20 pound tank is hooked on the tank mount (on the back of welding cart) for demos. The tank is hooked to the cart for mobility, and would be set away from the work area ( I use a 10 foot hose) during forging. As I said before, wire mesh covered hoses are the way to go it you want to keep safety in mind.

Before anyone reads the next paragraph - it is only for educational illustration, and should not be tried for fun. Just reading it and thinking about the possible result should be enough.
To get an idea of what we are talking about, make a small charcoal fire in a grill at least 50 feet from anything flammable. Take a half empty Bic lighter and toss it on the barbie, and........RUN . The ball of flames is the result of a fraction of an ounce of butane being released.....multiply that by 500 to 1000 times and you can see what might happen if a 20 pound propane tank ruptures.
 
bladsmth said:
I wouldn't put them there. All the reasons you have proposed are valid....and the local codes most likely won't allow the bottles in the garage. Check with your local fire marshall, and see what the restrictions are for 20 pound gas bottles.
Click to expand...

Yep checked with my local fire dept. "NEVER STORE PROPANE TANKS INDOORS"
 
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