Expectations (or am i just ocd)

Rsmith_77 said:
This is not a thread about whether or not you demand perfection in your knives so much as, do these flaws actually affect the use/life of the knife?
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IMO, if it's a decent piece of workmanship, no. It just adds character.
The only thing that really affects the use/life of a knife (or really anything, for that matter) that you can control is neglect. If you take good care of your stuff, it's prolly gonna last you awhile.
 
I think anyone on any forum like this wouldnt be here if not for some amount of OCD .... And after working in 2 factories in the last twelve years I've seen what lengths and sacrifices to quality are taken to be competitive with overseas labor costs. It's hard to compete with places who do not give equal human rights and pay w/ basic benefits that we expect here to their employees. I'd say politics over the last 20 years have sold the soul of the American made products we love.. I saw some of the best products built,( of which i still own one from the better years that still runs great) that I was proud to be a part of, eventually become cheap things that fell apart and caught fire in people's homes, and then we shut down anyway... Just the days we live In now...
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
As with production knives made today, I think the answer is, 'some were perfect, some nearly perfect, some were good, others not-so-much'; for exactly the same reason (built by imperfect human hands). I've thought about this a lot, and there are some stellar examples of the older knives to be held up as examples of how much 'better' the old ones supposedly were. I'd be willing to bet most of the perfect older knives we see posted here today, were no more the 'norm' than the perfectly-executed modern ones we occasionally see nowadays. A lot of us 'collectors' (read: obsessive perfectionists) go specifically looking for the 'best' examples we can find of the vintage knives, pretty much ruling out all the other 'less-than-perfect' knives of similar vintage that are found everywhere, but don't get noticed by collectors, because they're just 'average' or 'typical'. I myself have quickly dismissed a lot of older, but essentially mint, knives on the 'auction site', because it had that one particular 'flaw', like a warped blade (not centered), or wobbly blades & weak springs, or unevenly-matched stag scales, or cracks in the scales, or whatever else. I think, as with many today, the 'less-than-perfect' ones probably got used, and used hard, for a long time. And, some of the 'perfect' ones were noticed as such, and carefully set aside for us to enjoy at a later time. :)
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you know, that make alot of sense
alot of sense indeed

thank you
 
David, i disagree. Just look at the "Sheffield Thread".
Pre WW II USA knives were never in that Sheffield league, but most were very well made. I have a lot, maybe 800-1000 ? or more, i don't count, many have been well used, but nearly all still work perfectly, none have liner/spring gaps, etc. I think my collection is a representative cross section of Traditional folders from 70 or more years ago.
I also have lots of recent USA folders (1970 & on) and some do have the issues mentioned by the OP.
roland
 
The point I was emphasizing was, with all of the knives we've deliberately chosen to buy for each of our collections (no matter how many), how many others were deliberately passed by or ignored completely? And for what specific reasons? Not to mention, all of the vintage knives that've never again been put up for sale, but were simply used until they were spent or otherwise lost forever? Being collectors, we of course will collect the examples that are most attractive to us. Unless we were to collect each and every one that comes along, no matter the condition or quality, a 'collector's' perspective of overall quality is bound to be gradually skewed over time, until it's no longer truly representative of the whole.
 
When i was beginning to collect off ebay, i did buy just about every old USA folder that came along. Took me at least 2 years to begin to become selective. Many were "grampa's old knife", not from knife sellers or collectors. Just "out there" knives.
Based on all this, i have no doubt that pre WW II, the incidence of 'issues' was far lower. I also think there was decent profit for the owners and employees were allowed to take the time needed to get it right, way back then.
roland
 
rprocter said:
When i was beginning to collect off ebay, i did buy just about every old USA folder that came along. Took me at least 2 years to begin to become selective. Many were "grampa's old knife", not from knife sellers or collectors. Just "out there" knives.
Based on all this, i have no doubt that pre WW II, the incidence of 'issues' was far lower. I also think there was decent profit for the owners and employees were allowed to take the time needed to get it right, way back then.
roland
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Agreed. :)

I'd bet production volume, both overall and per-employee, was way, way lower then, too. Wouldn't be considered 'efficient' enough, by today's expectations.
 
Rsmith_77 said:
lol i thought someone might focus on the "perfect" adjective

and i have a ton of respect for the makers of slipjoints, its a skill i certainly dont possess

perhaps a couple of clarifying question might help. When our fathers, grandfathers etc bought their pocket knives, did they have these gaps, wobbles and lazy springs and just sucked it up and dealt with it? If so, that may help me realize I am expecting too much. Or were they mechanically superior to the models we are getting today?

Honest question there, not sarcasm
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I know my dad wouldn't even notice a little gap. He broke the tip off his buck and still used it for years. Us collectors get OCD with our stuff. Let's face it, collecting random stuff is quite materialistic and pretty silly for the most part :)
 
My thoughts:

a) This seems to stem from having more time to LOOK at knives than actually using and carrying them. I think you should do more of other stuff in your life and less examining them.

b) Buy one knife that most folks here accept as a truly high-end knife. Like a GEC. I see complaints about production-level Case knives now and then, so I decided to buy a GEC, just to see what the big deal is. We'll see!

c) Buy vintage Cases. Most folks say the ones made prior to the 80s were better. I've got a bid out on a vintage Case scout knife, so I'll see about that too.

I've had a couple of Bucks. The fit and finish is always perfect on them. Maybe try an American-made Buck, if you've been getting the Chinese-made ones.
 
a) This seems to stem from having more time to LOOK at knives than actually using and carrying them. I think you should do more of other stuff in your life and less examining them.
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ouch, you very well might be right, but ..ouch to my pride ;)

I've had a couple of Bucks. The fit and finish is always perfect on them. Maybe try an American-made Buck, if you've been getting the Chinese-made ones.
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only got 1 buck, my 309. The main clip blade has a "slightly" weak spring, and the pen blade has a small bit of side to side blade play. But i still love this knife, i still think its built like a tank and its american made.

But yes, i think your point is well taken sir :p
 
I think that most of us suffer from Obsessive Cutlery Disorder. Which is defined as, The continual search for the perfect knife, ( at the moment, for the time being, until I change my mind, or decide that this one has too much blade wobble, so many knives so little time, sigh...... ).
 
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The only problem with OCD is that when you do find that perfect knife for that particular use, the knife disappears. Happened to me all the time. It's a blessed curse.
 
Ya know it's funny, when I first started collectin' knives I had found a book in the bargain box about knife collectin' by Roy Ritchie and Ron Stewart called The Stabdard Knife Collectors Guide.

I remember reading about what to look for in a quality knife, ...scales and liners should fit with no gaps, you should be able to hold it up to a strong light and see no light leakin' through... blades should be centered and not rubbin'...back springs should be flush when both open and closed...openin' and closin' should be smooth and strong, (walk and talk)...no sharp edges, (except for the cuttin' edge)...tight fit to the bolsters...all blade grinds should be symmetrical/even...

These were the things I remember readin' and these were the standard I held all knives to.
I've foun that bein' more selective and buyin' older USA made knives, most of my traditional patterned knives are pre 60s when most US production knives were held to a higher standard.

I am a firm believer in the , "Ya get what ya pay for." school of thought, so based on that I buy quality no so much quantity and some times I have to wait and save a long time to get what I want.

Now I can't hold gifted knives to that same standard only because most people, (friends and family) ain't, as critical as I am so I don't hold those knive accountable.

Probably 'cause I've been collectin' for a while and I have a nice size collection to pick outta, I tend not to obsess over F&F so much since most of the knives that were of poor quality were weeded out already.
 
You're not OCD at all. You're a demanding, value conscious, knife guy. Welcome to the club.
I shifted most of my slip joint buys to GEC and yes they can be rather costly. I do get some very good deals from forum members in the traditional for sale forum. The deals have enabled me to gift several good GECs to friends in an attempt to save them from the tacticool knives that abound today.

Mark
 
Rsmith_77 said:
Is it too much to ask for your production knives to be perfect, blades line up correctly in the closed position, no wobble, no gaps in the liner whatever? Or am i just being OCD. I am not sure that any of these flaws will actually affect the use of these blades, but i fear that over time with use they will get worse.
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Two stories from other fields that describe how I think of it...

When I was younger, I worked as a bike mechanic. My boss, the owner, was a wonderful man and a real pragmatist. We had a customer who ordered a Mercian Vigorelli from England (the shop was in central Ohio), which is something equivalent to ordering a Tony Bose custom only a lot more expensive. Chuck built up the bike for the guy (he was a doctor) and in a few weeks he came back for it's break-in tune up. He complained that the rims had some wobble, which is entirely expected for a new wheel as it settles in. Wheel wobble on a bike is something like blade alignment on a folding knife. A bit is normal. Too much is a problem. So, we trued the wheel and every week for the next several weeks, the doctor returned complaining that the front wheel wasn't exactly true. Did the wheels have some detectable wobble? Yes. All wheels do. Did they matter? Not in the least bit. But, the bugged the doctor. Finally, my boss said in a very good natured way, "You know what you need doc? Fenders! If we put fenders on your bike, you won't be tempted to stare at the rims while you ride."

Second story... Fast forward several years and I was working in Vermont as a ski instructor. Fell in with a group of guys who skied in the woods away from the ski areas. Or skied on trails that weren't officially open yet. This meant thin conditions. Hitting rocks and stumps with skis is a good way to wreck a ski and skis are expensive. Many skiers baby their skis and have a single pair they set aside for skiing in thin conditions. We call them "rock skis". Rock skis get used with impunity. Rock skis are what you use when you need to "go for it" but there's a good chance that "going for it" could damage the ski. Anyway... this group of skiers had a saying. All skis are rock skis. This was more of a statement about your state of mind when skiing, which is to say, you need to be willing to go for it all the time, no matter what the ramifications are to your equipment. It's very freeing. You own the skis and the skis don't own you. It also puts the emphasis on the turn and not the tool and that's healthy.

Back to knives.... The experience with Chucks comment about fenders taught me that variations that don't effect performance don't matter. And my ski buds, who taught me that all skis are rock skis taught me that if I'm going to use a ski, or bike, or knife, it's not going to stay perfect anyway.

Perfection? IMO, perfect bikes hang on walls to be looked at and not ridden. Perfect skis sit unused. And perfect knives belong in display cases. Nothing wrong with knives in display cases. But, its not for me. I don't want to be a "discriminating knife buyer". Our local NPR station has adds for clothiers, rug makers and custom lamp makers all for "the discriminating buyer". Makes me cringe.

I would rather have a perfect experience with a knife than own a perfect knife. They're different. If the knife is a user, it needs to be just good enough to be useable and it's going to get dinged anyway. I want the freedom to USE the knife and that gives me a more perfect experience than perfectly aligned scales or whatever. That's how I look at it.
 
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Great stories Pinnah ! Having done a lot of riding and skiing, i can relate to both. And what you describe does apply to knives with minor liner gaps or a blade a bit off center. But blade play is different. I equate that to a bike wheel with a bad ding in the rim (flat spot). You feel it every time the wheel goes around. Takes the pleasure out of riding. A loose blade will still cut but the movement feels like sh*t when you use it.
roland
 
pinnah said:
Two stories from other fields that describe how I think of it...

When I was younger, I worked as a bike mechanic. My boss, the owner, was a wonderful man and a real pragmatist. We had a customer who ordered a Mercian Vigorelli from England (the shop was in central Ohio), which is something equivalent to ordering a Tony Bose custom only a lot more expensive. Chuck built up the bike for the guy (he was a doctor) and in a few weeks he came back for it's break-in tune up. He complained that the rims had some wobble, which is entirely expected for a new wheel as it settles in. Wheel wobble on a bike is something like blade alignment on a folding knife. A bit is normal. Too much is a problem. So, we trued the wheel and every week for the next several weeks, the doctor returned complaining that the front wheel wasn't exactly true. Did the wheels have some detectable wobble? Yes. All wheels do. Did they matter? Not in the least bit. But, the bugged the doctor. Finally, my boss said in a very good natured way, "You know what you need doc? Fenders! If we put fenders on your bike, you won't be tempted to stare at the rims while you ride."

Second story... Fast forward several years and I was working in Vermont as a ski instructor. Fell in with a group of guys who skied in the woods away from the ski areas. Or skied on trails that weren't officially open yet. This meant thin conditions. Hitting rocks and stumps with skis is a good way to wreck a ski and skis are expensive. Many skiers baby their skis and have a single pair they set aside for skiing in thin conditions. We call them "rock skis". Rock skis get used with impunity. Rock skis are what you use when you need to "go for it" but there's a good chance that "going for it" could damage the ski. Anyway... this group of skiers had a saying. All skis are rock skis. This was more of a statement about your state of mind when skiing, which is to say, you need to be willing to go for it all the time, no matter what the ramifications are to your equipment. It's very freeing. You own the skis and the skis don't own you. It also puts the emphasis on the turn and not the tool and that's healthy.

Back to knives.... The experience with Chucks comment about fenders taught me that variations that don't effect performance don't matter. And my ski buds, who taught me that all skis are rock skis taught me that if I'm going to use a ski, or bike, or knife, it's not going to stay perfect anyway.

Perfection? IMO, perfect bikes hang on walls to be looked at and not ridden. Perfect skis sit unused. And perfect knives belong in display cases. Nothing wrong with knives in display cases. But, its not for me. I don't want to be a "discriminating knife buyer". Our local NPR station has adds for clothiers, rug makers and custom lamp makers all for "the discriminating buyer". Makes me cringe.

I would rather have a perfect experience with a knife than own a perfect knife. They're different. If the knife is a user, it needs to be just good enough to be useable and it's going to get dinged anyway. I want the freedom to USE the knife and that gives me a more perfect experience than perfectly aligned scales or whatever. That's how I look at it.
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beautiful, just beautiful

got to thinking, regardless of anything else, I like most a Americans I think am a bit spoiled when it comes to my things
and for the record rprocter, the knives have some blade play, but nothing i can detect while actually using it, so if i am fair its not actually affecting performance

and my fear of using my knives and making them worse is definitely worse than babying them...might be something in your comment about letting my possessions own me instead of owning them
 
pinnah said:
Two stories from other fields that describe how I think of it...

When I was younger, I worked as a bike mechanic. My boss, the owner, was a wonderful man and a real pragmatist. We had a customer who ordered a Mercian Vigorelli from England (the shop was in central Ohio), which is something equivalent to ordering a Tony Bose custom only a lot more expensive. Chuck built up the bike for the guy (he was a doctor) and in a few weeks he came back for it's break-in tune up. He complained that the rims had some wobble, which is entirely expected for a new wheel as it settles in. Wheel wobble on a bike is something like blade alignment on a folding knife. A bit is normal. Too much is a problem. So, we trued the wheel and every week for the next several weeks, the doctor returned complaining that the front wheel wasn't exactly true. Did the wheels have some detectable wobble? Yes. All wheels do. Did they matter? Not in the least bit. But, the bugged the doctor. Finally, my boss said in a very good natured way, "You know what you need doc? Fenders! If we put fenders on your bike, you won't be tempted to stare at the rims while you ride."

Second story... Fast forward several years and I was working in Vermont as a ski instructor. Fell in with a group of guys who skied in the woods away from the ski areas. Or skied on trails that weren't officially open yet. This meant thin conditions. Hitting rocks and stumps with skis is a good way to wreck a ski and skis are expensive. Many skiers baby their skis and have a single pair they set aside for skiing in thin conditions. We call them "rock skis". Rock skis get used with impunity. Rock skis are what you use when you need to "go for it" but there's a good chance that "going for it" could damage the ski. Anyway... this group of skiers had a saying. All skis are rock skis. This was more of a statement about your state of mind when skiing, which is to say, you need to be willing to go for it all the time, no matter what the ramifications are to your equipment. It's very freeing. You own the skis and the skis don't own you. It also puts the emphasis on the turn and not the tool and that's healthy.

Back to knives.... The experience with Chucks comment about fenders taught me that variations that don't effect performance don't matter. And my ski buds, who taught me that all skis are rock skis taught me that if I'm going to use a ski, or bike, or knife, it's not going to stay perfect anyway.

Perfection? IMO, perfect bikes hang on walls to be looked at and not ridden. Perfect skis sit unused. And perfect knives belong in display cases. Nothing wrong with knives in display cases. But, its not for me. I don't want to be a "discriminating knife buyer". Our local NPR station has adds for clothiers, rug makers and custom lamp makers all for "the discriminating buyer". Makes me cringe.

I would rather have a perfect experience with a knife than own a perfect knife. They're different. If the knife is a user, it needs to be just good enough to be useable and it's going to get dinged anyway. I want the freedom to USE the knife and that gives me a more perfect experience than perfectly aligned scales or whatever. That's how I look at it.
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All well-said. And the bolded portion, to me, is perfection. :thumbup:

When I first started collecting knives ('accumulating knives' is probably more accurate), I did want to find the 'perfect knife'. Mainly because I was trying see where the 'bar' was set, in terms of quality. Once I (hopefully) found that one, I could have some perspective in other purchases I was contemplating. It didn't take too long for me, in buying as many of the 'perfect' ones as I could, to realize that I was afraid to actually use them for anything. Didn't want to scratch 'em. My tastes and preferences have now swung in a different direction, for the most part. I get much more satisfaction now, in buying old knives with some 'character' that came from already being used & carried for a while, and then cleaning them up and putting new edges on them (that I know for certain, will get used). To me, these ones are beautiful. Edit: And, as a bonus, they're usually a LOT less expensive. :)
 
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