Expensive Washers, Cheap Bearings

[TooMuchD2]

Just an observation and small rant,

In my search for the prefect budget friendly EDC folder for me (currently EDC RAT2 AUS8/ Tenacious 8cr), I have very specific requirements/preference.
1. Stainless steel for corrosion resistance (I work outside)
2. Softer steel for ease of sharpening on the go (in case I manage to accidentally chip or damage edge running across a brass staple while breaking down boxes)
3.METAL WASHERS (I've tried bearings and they've inevitably get gunked up or start to rust; teflon washers are sensitive to heat and are fragile)
4.Manual opening (stud/hole preferred; Flipper tabs get caught on pocket or higher risk of opening in pocket, perhaps too weak of a detent?)
5. SUB $50 USD

What I've noticed, is that recent budget knife companies such as CJRB, HoneyBadger, CIVIVI and a few others have a good selection of styles of blades for a very attractive price (usually between $25 and $50). As my username implies, I feel as though there is just TOO MUCH D2. I was excited that these budget friendly companies where moving up to higher wear steels so I no longer had the need to carry my more expensive S30V blades to work at risk of chipping, misplacing or losing them (from experience I'd rather not get into how that happened).

I had a QSP Parrot in 440C before they started using D2 exclusively and had unfortunately lost it during a job. I decided to buy their D2 option because is was only $28. But after just a few days at work in the summer, despite trying to keep it dry, either rain or sweat would reach the knife and start the rusting process. Honestly it's not too bad but I'd much rather to not have to worry about my blade rusting within hours of making contact with moisture. I loved the copper washers on that knife since I didn't have to worry about gunking up bearings, and plastic washers aren't nearly as smooth and quick.

After looking at options on the market for reputable companies, I settled on OKC Rat 2 AUS8 and the Spyderco Tenacious in 8cr.
I love the RAT 2 for its washers but don't like the Teflon very much. Ive gone through 2 sets of replacement teflon washers while performing some cleaning and maintenance, they are very fragile and not easy to find other than spending $8 for a whole parts kit on OKC store.

The Tenacious is probably the best solution to my dilemma as it uses ONLY 2 PB washers AND its stainless. The issue with the Tenacious is its $50-$60 price. When compared to the RAT 2 at only $25, it just doesn't make much sense, especially for the steel that the Tenacious has.

Other options I've seen that use 14C28N under $50 either has speed assist and/or bearings, and the options going around the $60-$80 range uses washers.
My Benchmade Griptillian that uses S30V also has washers and works very well, so it's just a huge pet peeve of mine, when cost/materials just dont match up.

Why arent there more options for a sub $50 folder with stainless AND washers. I don't mind 8cr13mov at all, but when its above the market average of $25-$40, it makes me very annoyed.

Like I said, a bit of a rant. I just figure in a somewhat large community of blade users here, there must be someone that feels the same way.

 

[Biochemdawg]

Buy a bunch of washers and just swap them out. I am a Teflon junky and have several sheets in varied thickness and I just stamp them out as I need. Several sites offer pb washers you can order in variety and bulk. I don’t mind bearings in flippers but I have mostly thumb openers in my collection and have no need for bearings. I dig a nice, slow thumb roll. There are so many knives that meet your criteria, but price and value may not align.

 

[kreole]

If you like the Rat2 but not the Teflon washers, why not just put phosphor bronze washers in? They're under a dollar each and won't need to be replaced again.

 

[TooMuchD2]

Buy a bunch of washers and just swap them out. I am a Teflon junky and have several sheets in varied thickness and I just stamp them out as I need. Several sites offer pb washers you can order in variety and bulk. I don’t mind bearings in flippers but I have mostly thumb openers in my collection and have no need for bearings. I dig a nice, slow thumb roll. There are so many knives that meet your criteria, but price and value may not align.

I've thought about just buying washers off of USAknifemaker, the issue is finding ones in exact sizes and thickness especially for the rat 2. I have tried stacking washers to replace bearings, but the tolerances tend to be so small, i ether have a crap ton of blade play or stiff action, I have an elementum with modded washers as a test and its OKAY, but I spent almost an hour sanding and polishing and then another 2 hours disassembling and reassembling to get a functional fit. It would just be a whole lot easier if companies just had it as pb washers, at it would be more cost efficient on their end as well.

 

[TooMuchD2]

If you like the Rat2 but not the Teflon washers, why not just put phosphor bronze washers in? They're under a dollar each and won't need to be replaced again.

The RAT 2 comes with 2 PB and 2 teflon. The issue is that the teflon makes up for 0.001" of the thickness. So finding a PB washer that has the exact total thickness without having to sand a thicker one down to the half mm is difficult.

 

[kreole]

The RAT 2 comes with 2 PB and 2 teflon. The issue is that the teflon makes up for 0.001" of the thickness. So finding a PB washer that has the exact total thickness without having to sand a thicker one down to the half mm is difficult.

If it helps, it most likely doesn't have to be the exact right thickness, especially at that price point, and it's pretty simple to sand down a pb washer. I replace all my Cold Steel ones. Sometimes they're doubled up, sometimes not.

 

[Murindo]

I highly recommend Nylatron washers over nylon, Teflon, and even Phosphor Bronze. Emerson knives has been using them successfully for over 20 years. They are harder than Teflon or Nylon and more lubrious than PB. You can find them at USAknifemaker. Second choice for me would be the PB.

 

[Chronovore]

I'm not a fan of D2. The low corrosion resistance has been a problem for me in the summer. Most of the Chinese D2 being used in budget knives also tends to fall short of expectations on edge retention.

That said, 8Cr13Mov is hot garbage. The corrosion resistance is a little better but the edge retention is worse. Too many other companies are offering much better steels in that sub-$50 price range. Look for 14C28N or 9Cr18Mov. Both are much more stainless and offer much better edge retention without being much more difficult to sharpen. My favorite cheap knife with studs and washers is the Tangram Santa Fe in Acuto 440.

As far as bearings versus washers, there is a current thread on that. Some relevant points are that while steel bearings can rust, ceramic bearings have become much more common in budget knives. Sure, caged bearings offer more space for gunk to get up into the action. The question is what you are doing with your knife, how much grit or grime is unavoidable, and how often you clean your knife. Knives on washers need to be kept clean too, especially when you have multiple washers or non-metallic washers. Set yourself up with a cheap cleaning kit: toothbrush, dish soap, isopropyl alcohol, a can of Dust-Off with the straw attachment, and a needle dropper with your favorite lubricating oil. A little maintenance can go a long way.

 

[NG VI]

Go up to $75-80 on the top end (this is mainly so you don't miss anything perfect over $5 you wouldn't mind spending if you knew) and include Kizer. They do a few washer knives and the ones that get washers are usually pretty awesome daily drivers, like the Dirk Pinkerton Rogue and Justin Lundquist's fatbottomed beauty, the Wanderer.

I would also suggest considering the occasional ceramic bearing knife if it otherwise stands out to you, since occasional rinsing isn't as big a deal as maintaining steel bearings which can corrode

 

[NG VI]

The RAT 2 comes with 2 PB and 2 teflon. The issue is that the teflon makes up for 0.001" of the thickness. So finding a PB washer that has the exact total thickness without having to sand a thicker one down to the half mm is difficult.

Yeah you can use whatever is close enough and the RAT will likely run fine, it's not such a precise tool that it can't tolerate a little variety in the pivot

 

[Greggy]

Not sure if still available, but if you can find one consider the Joe Pardue Utilitac II, associated with Ontario Knife. It is a rugged knife, sturdy, AUS 8, and built like a tank. I bought mine off Amazon in February for $29. The best budget knife in my budget knife collection.

 

[vinprom]

Do you consider a slipjojnt? This thread makes me to stop entertaining the idea of getting my first flipper for the time being. There is something with my mindset, but dissassembling, replacing parts, adjusting the blade movement - I am confused. I've read about these things, but now they are under the spotlight. Viva Douk Douk forever!

 

[Bob Denman]

The R2D2 is a perfectly fine knife...


Once you slide some PB washers around the blade...

 

[unwisefool]

Unless $50 is a big stretch for the tenacious, just buy it and use it. It's probably not worth all the time and effort you've put in looking for alternatives and solutions.

 

[Chronovore]

... I would also suggest considering the occasional ceramic bearing knife if it otherwise stands out to you, since occasional rinsing isn't as big a deal as maintaining steel bearings which can corrode

I've really never had a problem with ceramic bearings. If I get the knife visibly dirty, I know there is like silt or something in it, or if the action just doesn't feel right, I'll clean it. That can be a quick rinse or flush, or treatment with the quick maintenance kit I mentioned earlier. Depending on the knife, just taking it apart for a full cleaning can be quick too. The thing is, I give knives with washers get the same treatment.

I can understand the concern if a person is constantly around certain dusts, powders, fine grit, etc. I honestly don't want that kind of stuff getting into any folding knife. This is a lot like the lock strength argument where the inclement conditions that would push me far enough to care about Folder Type A versus Folder Type B just end up pushing me towards a fixed blade.

 

[TooMuchD2]

I've really never had a problem with ceramic bearings. If I get the knife visibly dirty, I know there is like silt or something in it, or if the action just doesn't feel right, I'll clean it. That can be a quick rinse or flush, or treatment with the quick maintenance kit I mentioned earlier. Depending on the knife, just taking it apart for a full cleaning can be quick too. The thing is, I give knives with washers get the same treatment.

I can understand the concern if a person is constantly around certain dusts, powders, fine grit, etc. I honestly don't want that kind of stuff getting into any folding knife. This is a lot like the lock strength argument where the inclement conditions that would push me far enough to care about Folder Type A versus Folder Type B just end up pushing me towards a fixed blade.

I've had the same consideration actually for simple slip joints, however one hand operation is an absolute.

Since I handle fuel, oil, grease and removing safety ties throughout the day, just taking the blade in and out of my pocket has my bearings sounding crusty by the end of the day. Daily cleaning just becomes a chore.

As for going for a fixed blade, I did end up rocking a CRKT minimalist for a few weeks but then it started drawing attention because of the fact that it becomes conspicuous whenever I have to remove it from the sheath

 

[TooMuchD2]

Unless $50 is a big stretch for the tenacious, just buy it and use it. It's probably not worth all the time and effort you've put in looking for alternatives and solutions.

Honestly, that's what I ended up doing. I have the Tenacious LW. And like I mentioned, I don't mind 8cr13mov for the tasks I need it for and it only takes me a minute or so on a pocket ceramic to return the edge to ideal sharpness, and maybe on the bench stone for 5 minutes every month or so.

It just drives me up a wall that Spyderco sells the Tenacious for thr current markup.

 

[Chronovore]

I've had the same consideration actually for simple slip joints, however one hand operation is an absolute.

Since I handle fuel, oil, grease and removing safety ties throughout the day, just taking the blade in and out of my pocket has my bearings sounding crusty by the end of the day. Daily cleaning just becomes a chore.

As for going for a fixed blade, I did end up rocking a CRKT minimalist for a few weeks but then it started drawing attention because of the fact that it becomes conspicuous whenever I have to remove it from the sheath

What kind of handling of fuel, oil, and grease do you do? I'm just wondering what makes the bearings "crusty".

If you are covered in such things, you are probably doing a good hand-washing and maybe using a nail brush when you finish. I'd want to clean any knife used under those conditions. I might just bring it right into the sink after washing my hands for a quick toothbrush scrub with dish soap. Then I'd disperse the water with a quick flush of 91% (or stronger) isopropyl alcohol. (I might skip the water and go right to the alcohol flush depending.) Then I'd dry the alcohol with the straw attachment on my Dust-Off and drop in some oil. (Practice eye safety.)

I sometimes EDC a small fixed blade instead of a folder. In your case, it might be worth it. It just matters how you carry it. The Minimalist is marketed as a neck knife, which can be hit or miss in my experience. I often attach to my belt with an over-shirt or jacket at least partially obscuring public view. Then re-sheathing is easy. Drawing is a similar motion to a pocket reach and it's surprisingly inconspicuous.

 

[TooMuchD2]

What kind of handling of fuel, oil, and grease do you do? I'm just wondering what makes the bearings "crusty".

If you are covered in such things, you are probably doing a good hand-washing and maybe using a nail brush when you finish. I'd want to clean any knife used under those conditions. I might just bring it right into the sink after washing my hands for a quick toothbrush scrub with dish soap. Then I'd disperse the water with a quick flush of 91% (or stronger) isopropyl alcohol. (I might skip the water and go right to the alcohol flush depending.) Then I'd dry the alcohol with the straw attachment on my Dust-Off and drop in some oil. (Practice eye safety.)

I sometimes EDC a small fixed blade instead of a folder. In your case, it might be worth it. It just matters how you carry it. The Minimalist is marketed as a neck knife, which can be hit or miss in my experience. I often attach to my belt with an over-shirt or jacket at least partially obscuring public view. Then re-sheathing is easy. Drawing is a similar motion to a pocket reach and it's surprisingly inconspicuous.

I work on the private side of an international airport which just happens to be where wind favors, so I'm essentially in a dust bowl. Jet fuel doesnt evaporate like other fuels. It's basically oily like kerosene. Whenever I finish "overwing" fueling and sometimes "single point" fueling I store my used gloves in my right pocket where I keep my tools. Even without the gloves, just putting my hands in my pockets continuously adds oils and dirt. Never had an issue with the RAT 2 as mentioned before. I just dislike the fragile teflon washers. I just give it a wipe down and swab around the liners and pivot area when I get home, and open frame cleaning every couple weeks.

 

[Chronovore]

I work on the private side of an international airport which just happens to be where wind favors, so I'm essentially in a dust bowl. Jet fuel doesnt evaporate like other fuels. It's basically oily like kerosene. Whenever I finish "overwing" fueling and sometimes "single point" fueling I store my used gloves in my right pocket where I keep my tools. Even without the gloves, just putting my hands in my pockets continuously adds oils and dirt. Never had an issue with the RAT 2 as mentioned before. I just dislike the fragile teflon washers. I just give it a wipe down and swab around the liners and pivot area when I get home, and open frame cleaning every couple weeks.

Depending on how much wet fuel is actually getting on your knife, it could be at least partially dissolving or mixing with your lubricating oil. You also might be ending up with some level of dust slurry. That would favor washers but personally, I go with a small fixed blade if I could. Do you wear coveralls or a jacket?