Exploring how we want to use this Cantina space

S

Steve Tall

Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
5,431
"Why are you religious" is the title of a previous thread that is an example of how we can have a respectful dialogue about religion here at the HI Cantina. Instead of pointing out what went wrong in a recent thread about religious beliefs, I would like to show an example that we can aspire to (and actually achieve):

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/338590-why-are-you-religious

The thread above is closed to further comments. This current thread is NOT for answers to the question, "Why are you religious", so please don't hijack the thread. (Consider the question to be rhetorical.) In this thread, I invite you to comment on the previous thread having this title, with the goal of exploring how we want to use this Cantina space for such topics.

Moderators, if you want to have a policy of only one thread at a time about religion, then I suggest that you close the thread "Is Jesus God?", as I think it has run its course at 14 pages.

I'll go first with this thread:

I come to the Cantina to relax with friends (or friends I haven't yet met).
I'm game for dialogue, but I'm not looking for contentious debate here, as it can be stressful.
("Dialogue" to me is where people are honestly open to leaving the discussion with a changed opinion or a modified belief)

A thread titled "Is Jesus God?" seems to be, at best, a poll of whether people are Christians or not, and at worst, a call to take sides on a potentially divisive issue, followed by disrespect on both sides.

I like the thread "Why are you religious" because it seems to be a true exploration where all parties can respect eachother and learn.

Thanks for listening.
 
I'm not religious, but I have come to realize after much contemplation that human beings are spiritual beings with souls and a spirit. After much research and application of logic and reason, I've come to the conclusion that Jesus was who he said he was.
I don't say that lightly. I used to hate Christians and Christianity.
My advice; don't chose a belief based only on how it makes you feel. Research every aspect of that belief, be it emotional, rational, logical, historical, natural, supernatural, etc. Then ask yourself:
Does this belief or world view explain why we're here, how we're here, and where we're going.
I personally don't believe this is all just a happening of natural chance and humans are just organic organisms evolved from primordial goo.
 
Great topic.

Wish you chose a different title. People will reply to the title, perhaps because it's the only thing they read. I don't see how the title can be changed though. Perhaps we can sweep the off-topic replies back into the other thread. I'll have to figure out how to do that.

I really want to hear what the regulars at the Cantina have to say on this. As you note such topics are not new to the Cantina but the massive influx of new people jumping on a topic is.
 
Howard Wallace said:
I really want to hear what the regulars at the Cantina have to say on this. As you note such topics are not new to the Cantina but the massive influx of new people jumping on a topic is.
Click to expand...
Sorry I'm not a regular at the Cantina :) I have enough knife interests as things are, I'm hoping to resist looking into H.I. Cantina knives for fear I may want to buy one of them also. Wish me luck!
 
hoopster said:
Sorry I'm not a regular at the Cantina :) I have enough knife interests as things are, I'm hoping to resist looking into H.I. Cantina knives for fear I may want to buy one of them also. Wish me luck!
Click to expand...

Actually we have had a number of delightful new visitors, so don't feel unwelcome. It's just unusual. Generally the HI group hang out and engage in off-topic discussions. This last topic was started by someone we don't see much, and much of the thread was interactions between people who don't hang out here. It's like if you came home and there was a giant party in the living room.
 
I am not happy with the idea that the Cantina may turn into the new "Political Arena" of religion, with the dissension and bitterness that comes with that.

I am not happy with the self-congratulatory preachiness of those who come to witness and find other views to be troublesome.

I am also not happy with the exclusionary point of view that says, "Moderators, if you want to have a policy of only one thread at a time about religion, then I suggest that you close the thread "Is Jesus God?", as I think it has run its course at 14 pages."

I think that thread is a perfect example of why we need to return to moving religious discussions back to the Political Arena itself, or if they don't meet PA rules of membership level and format, closing them.

* ****** **** ****** *

The Cantina has a history of handling exotic topics with a comfortable level of acceptance and understanding. But the kind of religious discussion that has recently become so notorious is too likely to spill over here.

Like buying and selling, or insults and vulgarity, it may be something that needs to be restricted to a forum designed to handle it.
 
Steve,

Kiah clued me in on how to change titles. I took the liberty of changing your title from the question that wasn't meant to be answered to the main point, which I took from your text.

Again, an excellent idea for this thread.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
...I am also not happy with the exclusionary point of view that says, "Moderators, if you want to have a policy of only one thread at a time about religion, then I suggest that you close the thread "Is Jesus God?", as I think it has run its course at 14 pages."
Click to expand...

Esav Benyamin, I'll try to clarify what I meant by saying that, with the hope that you will clarify your unhappiness with what you call my "exclusionary point of view", because I'm not understanding your comment, and I don't quite see how my point of view here is exclusionary.

My premise is "if the moderators want only one thread at a time about religion".
If this is so, as I think I read something like this recently, I'd like a chance to open a thread that refers to religion (this thread), and maybe 14 pages is enough for the previous thread.
As it is, I'm personally OK in theory with more than one thread at a time about religion.
 
The first big religion thread looks like an alien intrusion here. What will the next one look like? If you turn the Cantina, from a quiet comfortable space for HI people to meet, into bennyb's Christian forum, I will oppose that.
 
Hmm, good points Esav. While I like seeing such discussions when there's mutual respect and thoughtfulness all around, the current thread on religion does seem a bit, er, proprietary. While I'd find it a pity that I couldn't participate once moved to the Political forum, being a mere registered user, I doubt any of us would lose any sleep over the fact either.

In any event, I've gotten to put in a bit of attempted levity and ideas in before any potential move/closure. :D
 
I've locked down the evangelical thread so we can have a bit of time and space to discuss the issues it raises.
 
There's really a problem either way you go, and the problem is who responds to these questions.

I really don't understand what peoples' problem is. See, we've talked about Buddhist beliefs, Hindu beliefs, I seem to recall Yvsa going on about some of his beliefs a good while ago, I've posted some of my beliefs as well as mythologies that I've drawn things from. In all that time, NONE, not one of the people that had to spew their garbage came in here to do so. It was mostly the Cantina regulars, and sometimes some new folks responding, asking questions, etc.

Benny's first thread was going pretty well, with the typical Cantina response until someone got the bright idea to move it to W&C. W&C of all places. Then it all hit the fan. People took it upon themselves to launch an anti-christian crusade into the Cantina, apparently not understanding that this isn't the kind of joint W&C is. In the specific thread, the question was a simple yes or no, and maybe an explanation. All that required is ONE post. "Yes, it's what the bible says and I believe it" or "No, I'm not a Christian, I don't buy it." But instead, people who, by and large never post in here, have to launch into long-winded diatribes.

The Cantina is a special place, and just like you wouldn't go into a country club and act like you're in a biker bar, you don't come here and act like it's W&C or PA. There is a very particular atmosphere here, and if you don't want to go along with it, it's simple: don't post here. You already have a place in PA, W&C and that other forum.

For another thing, usually, when someone posts in the Cantina, it's because they want a response from the Cantina crowd -- old and new -- and not a W&C response.

So, on one hand, I'd say don't allow religious talk, because there will be people whop flack here because they simply can't control themselves. On the other hand, we'd miss a lot of posts, including Yangdui's, which often have some religious content, especially when she talks about festivals and the inspiration for some of the blades, etc. I, for one, don't mind hearing about people's religion, and I have no problem with Benny's threads so far, because they were phrased as questions. He wasn't telling anyone what to believe, he was asking if they believed something and then bolstering his point. That thread could have gone quite well with no bashing, just people articulating their view, and moving on.

So I cast my vote for not restricting the responsible adult members from posting such things, just those who can't (or won't) control themselves.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
...Benny's first thread was going pretty well, with the typical Cantina response until someone got the bright idea to move it to W&C. W&C of all places. Then it all hit the fan. People took it upon themselves to launch an anti-christian crusade into the Cantina, apparently not understanding that this isn't the kind of joint W&C is. ...
Click to expand...

Let me clarify some facts that may not be self-evident. Benny posted his first thread in both W&C and here at the same time. The initial moderator action was to merge the two threads with the same title into one over at W&C. We don't usually leave redirects to that forum.

I put in an unlinked redirect so the forumites here would not be mystified by a dissappearing thread.

It appears he posted the same starting post for the second thread in both forums also.

Since many people, instead of going to a particular forum, hit the "new posts" button to see what active posts they want to engage in, having identical threads with the same title in W&C and here is an invitation for forum crossover confusion.
 
Last edited:
I vote to keep the Cantina open to religious discussion. BUT, I think Uncle Bill’s rules should be followed above and beyond forum rules. I believe the Mods here had that exact thing in mind with the other thread and I appreciate that very much;). I am curious about religion in general. It’s fascinating and as integral to human existence as breathing. Often in the past, non-religious/non-believing friends of mine have admitted, after much discussion, they believe in some power of some sort. It’s very personal, very individual and rarely fits neatly into a box. My point is, religion is really a very inclusive topic, if the discussion is open and respectful.

This is a micro-community of sorts. I don’t “know” you folks, yet I feel I know you pretty well. Often here, we wish to know how our “friends” feel about things. There are places on BF I don’t visit. There are also folks on BF I’d rather not visit with. I like the Cantina and I like the Cantinistas. I guess I likely wouldn’t post questions concerning specific religions here, unless it concerned beliefs practiced in Nepal. I would probably keep it general, such as “What religious practices do you have, which have or had a very practical non-religious purpose?” The answers might surprise many! As a past anthropology student, this is the stuff I like. I would want my question to pique the interest of all Cantina members. With that said, I have no problem with brother Benny’s thread. I’ve seen many threads in other places I didn’t care for, so I walked away. I didn’t post in Benny’s thread since it seemed to be so contentious. It wasn’t the thread, it was some particular posts(ers) IMHO. Take care and God bless.
 
I like spirituality. I like threads about people being moved spiritually be it through Christian witnessing, an Old Testament epiphany, reaching a higher plain of enlightenment through meditation, or simply feeling the gentle brush of something much bigger than ourselves in the most unexpected of places. Those kinds of threads and posts are both life affirming as well as a friendly way to share our inner space with our Cantina family without stepping on dogmatic toes.

Personally, I could do without RELIGIOUS threads. There is a difference. Furthermore, if find religious debate both tedious and pointless. It never clarifies anything. How could it? Religion is a series of rules based on faith. Faith cannot be measure quantitatively and infinitely an aspect of introspective understanding. The only thing it does is drive a wedge between people who are friends regarding 99.99% of the rest of the comings and goings of the world around them. I have very conservative Jewish friends. I have friends that are so devoutly Baptist that the thought of alcohol ever accidentally passing their lips nearly makes them physically sick. I have Muslim friends that throw a pork BBQ in the summer. Personally, I'm a terrible Methodist (and that's saying a lot). I have talked many, many times with my various friends ABOUT their faiths. I want to understand what they believe simply because they are my friends, and I want to know them fully. I have never DEBATED faith with them. In a debate, one must convey their point and persuade the other party to accept its "truth".

In short, I despise threads on religious theory. I only poke my head in them because it is part of my job here. Even so, the differences between two threads can be SO subtle, yet convey something TOTALLY different. Asking if Jesus is God boarders on a troll title, IMHO. Even if the thread starter does not mean for it to be such a divisive topic title, a little more thought should have been put into it. Once again, just my cranky opinion.

In short, I'm OK with whatever the majority say (of course after clearing it with Spark and then Yangdu). My duties here are not to govern what is talked about. Y'all are grown men and women. Surely you can keep things 90% on track. IMHO, a moderators job is to make sure the rules are upheld. Civility, no cursing, booting the occasional carpet-bombing troll. This place cannot be a dirt floor saloon without a spittoon. But I have seen it when it was governed with a much heavier hand, and I nearly left for greener pastures.

Uncle Bill would always err on the side of free speech. However, he possessed a gift of saying so much with so little. The slightest of nudge with the gentlest of a sentence would knock a crazy train thread back onto its tracks. Those of us that have followed him and Rusty have struggled with.
 
Howard Wallace said:
Let me clarify some facts that may not be self-evident. Benny posted his first thread in both W&C and here at the same time. The initial moderator action was to merge the two threads with the same title into one over at W&C. We don't usually leave redirects to that forum.

I put in an unlinked redirect so the forumites here would not be mystified by a dissappearing thread.

It appears he posted the same starting post for the second thread in both forums also.

Since many people, instead of going to a particular forum, hit the "new posts" button to see what active posts they want to engage in, having identical threads with the same title in W&C and here is an invitation for forum crossover confusion.
Click to expand...

Apologies, I didn't get that the first time around. When you cross post in W&C, yeah, you're going to attract flies.

In that case I have to say: Benny, if you're going to post something in W&C, don't post it in another forum as well.


ETA: It seems all of the problem is because of this cross-posting, and is also why this hasn't been an issue before because what's posted in the Cantina generally stays here.

Question for the mods: have the rules changed? IIRC, there's something in the rules about not cross-posting already isn't there? Like you can post a link to another thread, but not repost the entire thread?
 
Cross posting makes problems. Cross posting with W&C being one of the locations brings W&C into the open discussion thread, like an infection. Doubly undesirable. We have to think anyone posting in W&C at all is just not serious, or doesn't know what he's doing and has to brought into line with reality.

That's why I merged the threads and buried them in W&C. Quarantine.
 
That's why Esav is a supermod.

I didn't understand the implications of wormholes through the space-time-forum continuum. The light is beginning to dawn.

May the force be with you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top