Exploring how we want to use this Cantina space

I apologize to all here; have a (personal) rule about not discussing politics or religion and i broke my own rule - i apologize for contributing to any negative aspects of recent events.

- that's why i went back and deleted it - i also sent a personal apology to the member it was pointed at-

- i dont think we should have that kind of hard line discussion here - spiritual things have been discussed here in the past as well as personal viewpoints; but it seemed it was always kind of "in the family" so to say and members seemed to remain open minded and accepting of each others personal beliefs with no evangelizing or criticizing - that's why i like the HI area of the forum

just my 3 cents - for what its worth

Eric
 
There has been one point that everyone has alluded to (Steve in particular linked to the two separating threads at the beginning), but Jake has directly addressed: the distinction between good spiritual threads and bad (and ugly) spiritual threads. Discussing faith and debating faith are two very different things.

Asking "Is Jesus God?" implies that there is a God and that Jesus was significantly related to God in some way, which not everyone agrees with. Thus, arguments ensue, everyone wants to put in their 2 cents. Pushing back against this backlash by quoting religious scriptures just makes things worse, as the reliability of these texts in themselves are also heavily debated. It's an argument no one will win, and this has been proved time and time again.

In short, religious beliefs are subjective. They cannot be definitively proved, at least at this point in time. But, everyone has an opinion of it. And we all know what they say about opinions.

I like the Cantina and its culture, and how it was used in the past worked just fine. Limiting it to worded guidelines doesn't give it justice. We're all reasonable people here, and have a general idea of how it's supposed to be used. So let's just move on.
 
I've always apprieciated the The HI Cantina for being one of the few truly hospitable places on the Internet. Generally a very non-judgemental place as well. Entertaining and informative. Always very supportive. Rare stuff. We should all strive to keep that way. Bill & Yangdu Martino have done a Good Thing here. Let's be careful with it cuz its pretty special.
 
7rip13a said:
Discussing faith and debating faith are two very different things.
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This.:thumbup:
I like a good discussion of opinions and beliefs, but when it becomes a debate where any side must prove itself correct, things go bad.:(
 
Abaniko said:
I've always apprieciated the The HI Cantina for being one of the few truly hospitable places on the Internet. Generally a very non-judgemental place as well.
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It isn't always easy to be living in two worlds

To watch the groundhogs chewing on the grass
and doves aloft, wings flickering as they pass

We battle petty sins for the sake of truth and money
and forget the six days of the week are the same as every Sunday

To intermix the sacred and profane
to raise ourselves up instead of casting blame

You never have to drop it all to run and clasp His hand
just wave hello as He walks by each day. He'll understand.
 
My take on all this.

#1. When Bill was alive and before he was ravaged by cancer, he devoted a lot of attention to the HI forum and responded to almost every post. He rarely if ever moved or locked a thread or edited a post. His constant attention created a unique environment that ran pretty smoothly. Now we have 4 HI mods and several supermods and even between us all we can’t devote the level of attention Bill did to the forums. Also, several individuals will not achieve the level of consistency and predictability that a single individual devoting the majority of his attention did.

#2. Detailed rules are not the way to go. The mods need to be able to make judgment calls depending on the situation without being tied up into legalistic arguments. Threads like this one help us to understand the feelings and desires of the community we are serving and are an important influence on the way we approach things.

#3. The spirituality vs religion distinction seems to be an important one. There will be many gray areas and almost certainly someone is going to disagree with any particular moderator’s call. Warning signs might be things like:
• inflammatory thread titles,
• calls for outside participation like a cross-post to W&C or a call for others of a particular bent to come and weigh in
• Dogmatic assertions like “My religious authority said x, therefore you’re going to hell.”
• An apparent attempt to convert others as opposed to a humble mutual search for wisdom.
The recent problematic thread displayed all these signs and more.

#4. We still need to be very careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If one of the forumites asked in the course of a thread “I’ve been wondering what Jesus meant when he said “Consider the lilies of the field…”, what do you all think?” that would probably lead to a great discussion and is right in the spirit of the Cantina. There is considerable grey area in classifications though, and a single post may have in it the seeds of a great discussion and also of a train wreck. An advantage of having several mods is we get various judgment sets and viewpoints coming to bear on the issue.

I’ve learned some things in the past few days.

Thanks y'all for sharing your thoughts. They are highly valued.
 
I will have to vote against this. I know my opinion doesn't mean jack here but I clearly recall being trolled and flamed in The Cantina during my early days on bladeforums for daring to admit I wasn't a member of a certain religion (which I will not name). I've also been trolled and flamed for not endorsing a certain president (who I also will not name). Since then I have seen other religious threads and political threads appear here and observed no one else being attacked. So yes, I am taking it quite personally as I was intentionally singled out to be the troll target on this forum.

I feel such threads are started for the purpose of singling out and bullying those who are unpopular and not part of The Clique, and nothing else.

That's my two pesos.
 
Wolf_1989 said:
I will have to vote against this. I know my opinion doesn't mean jack here but I clearly recall being trolled and flamed in The Cantina during my early days on bladeforums for daring to admit I wasn't a member of a certain religion (which I will not name). I've also been trolled and flamed for not endorsing a certain president (who I also will not name). Since then I have seen other religious threads and political threads appear here and observed no one else being attacked. So yes, I am taking it quite personally as I was intentionally singled out to be the troll target on this forum.

I feel such threads are started for the purpose of singling out and bullying those who are unpopular and not part of The Clique, and nothing else.

That's my two pesos.
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As I recollect you've mentioned being flamed numerous times here. I have no idea what you're talking about, perhaps because it occurred during a time I was not frequenting the forum. Would you care to point us to the threads where this occurred?

Also, what are you voting against? There is no vote going on here. People were expressing their opinions on the best use of this space. You are quite free to express yours also. Please try to do so in a manner we can all follow.
 
Howard Wallace said:
As I recollect you've mentioned being flamed numerous times here. I have no idea what you're talking about, perhaps because it occurred during a time I was not frequenting the forum. Would you care to point us to the threads where this occurred?

Also, what are you voting against? There is no vote going on here. People were expressing their opinions on the best use of this space. You are quite free to express yours also. Please try to do so in a manner we can all follow.
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The first and to me the most important one was a thread someone posted about this guy who was grinding the cho's off kukris because they are demonic. This person also went on to declare native americans and other people he doesn't like are demonic too. I was ganged up on by the trolls because I had the nerve to voice my opinion about it.

Later on there was a thread about Obama and I was flamed for adding my two pesos regarding that too.

There are others but those two are the most important to me. I never made a single nasty remark about any member of this forum, but had plenty leveled at me.

So ok... when people are on here talking about respectful and friendly The Cantina is...well ok, maybe it is for certain people who are popular enough or whatever. Not me. I'll never feel genuinely welcome here. Barely tolerated at most.

For this reason I would prefer any and all political and religious discussions banned from here, or maybe as a compromise limit it so only the cool kids can discuss it there somehow.
 
my great grandfather walked the trail of tears - i probably would have agreed with whatever you said -- as i do in this post
 
Wolf_1989 said:
The first and to me the most important one was a thread someone posted about this guy who was grinding the cho's off kukris because they are demonic. This person also went on to declare native americans and other people he doesn't like are demonic too. I was ganged up on by the trolls because I had the nerve to voice my opinion about it.

Later on there was a thread about Obama and I was flamed for adding my two pesos regarding that too.

There are others but those two are the most important to me...
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I spent a while researching old threads and I think these are the religion and politics threads you refer to. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/475051-Christian-kukri-Guy-steals-HI-photos

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/592579-2nd-Amendment

These threads are great examples of both the advantages and disadvantages of talking about sensitive areas of politics and religion.

Wolf_1989 said:
...I never made a single nasty remark about any member of this forum, but had plenty leveled at me.

So ok... when people are on here talking about respectful and friendly The Cantina is...well ok, maybe it is for certain people who are popular enough or whatever. Not me. I'll never feel genuinely welcome here. Barely tolerated at most.
...
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My take on reading those threads is that you have a thin skin and take things personally, but are slow to recognise the things you say that might easily be mistaken and give offense to others. Many of us, including myself, are the same way. That is one reason this type of thread is difficult to handle.

There are numerous native americans here on the forum. I suggest you PM some and discuss your feelings. Yvsa in particular is a respected elder here, whose wisdom is appreciated by many.

It is evident those threads caused you great pain, from your subsequent mentions on the forum.

Wolf_1989 said:
I'm interested to see how many members here can voice their opinons on this subject without being attacked by the Troll Patrol like I was.
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Wolf_1989 said:
Wow. Your experience here has been completely different from mine. I used to feel all warm and snuggy and welcome here too... for about a month or so... then the Troll Patrol came after for me - more than once, and more than a few times - and I haven't felt welcome or wanted here since. I stick around to see what sort of goodies Ms Yangdu offers and I occassionly snag something. That's it. I'm not one of the "cool kids". Whatever.

Sorry. I had to get that off my chest.

And yes I know full well I'm probably going to be flamed and trolled into the ground for this.

Oh well.
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Wolf_1989 said:
Yeah Yvsa I know, and it doesn't bother me as much now as it did then, but it still bothers me; to the point where even now a few years later I will type out a post and then delete because I just have a feeling it would be blown out of context by someone and another nasty crapfest would start. I hate drama. Especially unnecessary drama.

Back when the original incident occurred, I had only been a member here a very brief time and came to love posting here. I was considering the Cantina and HI forum to be my new internet home. It was great to find others who love khukris as much as I do. But then, in only a few posts, things changed.

I haven't really felt particularly liked or wanted here since...
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Wolf_1989 said:
The last time I was involved in a thread like this, I was attacked because I openly admitted to being a non-christian. I made no negative statement about any member of this forum. I didn't troll or bash anyone. But the verbal attack and ad hominem was dropped on me by several forumites while (to the best of my knowledge) the Mods did nothing.
This has taught me the hard way that I am simply not popular enough to have an opinion on this matter, so I will withdraw from this thread now before the guys with the pitchforks and torches show up looking for any excuse to bash me again.
I could answer your question Warty, but I'd be lynched.
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Wolf_1989 said:
Thanks for the trolling guys.

I expected nothing less from ya'll.

This is the third time I've been trolled on this forum for daring to speak my mind, foolishly forgetting I'm not that popular to begin with.
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Wolf_1989 said:
...For this reason I would prefer any and all political and religious discussions banned from here, or maybe as a compromise limit it so only the cool kids can discuss it there somehow.
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Point noted.
 
Wolf_1989, I don't see you as the under dog or red headed step child. People hardly listen to me, I'm actually shocked when ever one of my threads reaches 2 pages.

As for the politics and religious stuff, that should probably be kept in a different forum. This forum is more about having fun, relaxing and chatting with friends. Thats one reason why I started the gun and knife thread.
 
Howard Wallace said:
My take on reading those threads is that you have a thin skin and take things personally, but are slow to recognise the things you say that might easily be mistaken and give offense to others.
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Whatever.

When I can see for myself how virtually everyone else can make much more "controversial" (for lack of a better term) statements and not be bashed for it, yes indeed I am taking personally. I literally expect to be attacked after every post I make on this website. I was not the one who started the bashing. Oh but I'm thin skinned and I should just shut up about it. Right? They can OPENLY flame me with some ad hominem all they like but I should be vewy vewy careful that something I post might be misconstrued by trolls. Sure. That's fair.
 
Wolf, Howard is right.

Some members objected to some things you said. Other members supported you.

Many members argued with each other, having nothing to do with you. All these discussions are more profitable if you read for the topic, and not for the user names, not even your own. Who are these people who flamed you and why do you care what their opinion is? Discuss the topic, and ignore the personal remarks.

The Cantina is the most accepting and forgiving of forums. When the rare topic comes up that gets heated, back off, it's not what you came here for, and you are not required to tilt at every windmill on the dry, dusty plain before you. Pick your battles: only fight the ones that are fun.
 
Howard Wallace said:
...

Since many people, instead of going to a particular forum, hit the "new posts" button to see what active posts they want to engage in...
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This is how I found the thread.
My apologies if anything I posted caused ripples in your pool.

A simple sticky stating the HI forums intent & posting guidelines, like they have in the traditional forum would pretty much sort it - once you have figured out what it is you want or do not want that is. I looked for one before posting here.

That said some of the comments here do make the Cantina seem a bit closeted and not the most welcoming of places to the newcomer.
Cheers
 
I'd have to say that the Cantina is like a, well, Cantina. There's established customers (members) that have been here a long time (far longer than me), and new people. If you come in with swords drawn and guns blazing, you can expect a cold reception at best.

Wolf:
I dunno man, maybe I'm too thick-skinned. I think I've crossed swords with just about everyone in here except Yangdu. And I try to be nice in this forum. People disagree. I guess I figure people shouldn't ask opinion-based questions if they don't want an answer that disagrees with them.

On the first thread linked above, let's be honest, you fired the first shot on that one. I agree with your sentiment regarding people that call themselves Christian and act like that, if I stated it that way, I'd expect to take heat from it.

On the second thread, I didn't see any real bashing, just some people disagreed with you. I'm happy when a political discussion goes that calmly. Go say that on the Democratic Underground and you'll get death threats (trust me, although it was a lot of fun seeing people get that twisted up).

We've posted a bit on the Axe subforum, so my advice would be: Be the Viking. A Viking wouldn't get offended real easily (in fact, statesmanship and being able to one-up an opponent in an argument was as highly prized as fighting ability). I think you draw less heat than I usually do.
 
AusieGav said:
This is how I found the thread.
My apologies if anything I posted caused ripples in your pool.

A simple sticky stating the HI forums intent & posting guidelines, like they have in the traditional forum would pretty much sort it - once you have figured out what it is you want or do not want that is. I looked for one before posting here.

That said some of the comments here do make the Cantina seem a bit closeted and not the most welcoming of places to the newcomer.
Cheers
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G'day mate.

No worries.

You're welcome to stop by anytime.
 
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Wolf_1989 said:
I will have to vote against this. I know my opinion doesn't mean jack here but I clearly recall being trolled and flamed in The Cantina during my early days on bladeforums for daring to admit I wasn't a member of a certain religion (which I will not name). I've also been trolled and flamed for not endorsing a certain president (who I also will not name). Since then I have seen other religious threads and political threads appear here and observed no one else being attacked. So yes, I am taking it quite personally as I was intentionally singled out to be the troll target on this forum.

I feel such threads are started for the purpose of singling out and bullying those who are unpopular and not part of The Clique, and nothing else.

That's my two pesos.
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Yeah I gotta go with Howard on this one. I don't recall this. As a person whose stomach generally sours anything there is a heavy handed religious or political debate, I don't think I would have let this go one if I had been in the loop. Now, if I weren't in the loop, that is totally my fault, I guess, for not checking up on things close enough.

But let this be a blanket statement, mods can't be everywhere all the time. All of us have day jobs and a real life outside of the forum. As Howard has mentioned, Uncle Bill was here A LOT. It took Esav until 2009 or 2010 to catch up and exceed Uncle Bill's post count. HI was his passion and his livelihood. That said, if anyone feels slighted or personally attacked, please don't take it as moderator indifference if no one steps in. Shoot us an email or PM. We're here to help, and we will do so...but we have to be kept in the loop.
 
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