Extreme Judgement : just some spec's and a little splitting

Don't you guys think that comparing rope cutting results is a bit meaningless, because not everybody will use the same brand/gauge of rope?

After all, one knife can make 10 000 cuts through dental silk and another knife can make 2 cuts through a steel cable...
 
komondor - I have owned or own two SH Steelhearts (still have one), a Steelheart E, and a Steelheart E ZT. Each knife performs differently. The thinner stock on the ZT and the sabre grind actually make it a pretty good chopper while it works just fine around the camp too. In my opinion the Steelheart E with the assymetrical grind was the worst cutter out of them all. But that same edge was very rugged. It's all a trade off. I also think the QC on the E line suffered a bit for awhile - factory edges were inconsistent and the handle slabs did not always fit perfectly. The older straight handles had no such problems, and the newer fusion series has much better fit and finish, but there are many examples of excellent E models out there. Like I said, I have an NO E ZT that cuts like crazy, and did right out of the box. Of course it has a nice symmetrical convex edge grind. And no, the straight handle badger Attack would push cut a catalogue page with the factory edge, and easily shave hair. I never needed to reprofile it at all. I have reprofiled a Badger Attack III, though, because its edge geometry was a little to thick for my purposes. It cuts like crazy now.

Yeah, I know its you. I was simply amazed that you would condemn the entire Busse product line based on what I consider to be limited experience. Yeah, I believe you were not happy with the one Steelheart II you had, but believe me, there are other Busses out there that clearly contradict your overall condemnation.

BTW, as for knives as choppers I would much rather use a large knife over a hatchet for most chopping chores. An axe is not a fair comparison. They are much larger and heavier than the knives we are talking about.
 
Don't you guys think that comparing rope cutting results is a bit meaningless, because not everybody will use the same brand/gauge of rope?
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Usually, the size and type of line being cut would be listed, i.e. 1" hemp rope. There is not really that much variance among rope brands and batches that it would induce a catostraphic skew in the results.

Also, testing done by a single user would usually be done with the same spool of rope, any variation would be minor.

The one factor that could skew things badly is the condition of the rope. Dirty rope is very abbrasive and can quickly wear and edge out, it is similiar to cutting carpet. Large diameter rope can harbor some suprisingly large inclusions, especially if it has been used in a logging or marine environment.

For that reason I only use new, clean rope when testing knives.

BTW, as for knives as choppers I would much rather use a large knife over a hatchet for most chopping chores. An axe is not a fair comparison. They are much larger and heavier than the knives we are talking about.
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Large knives can have advantages over a hatchet for tasks like limbing or cutting small saplings, however it takes a very large knife to outweigh the head spped and leverage advantage a head has. As well, in very thick wood, the blade will strike along a much larger surface (whatever the length of the balde that contacts the tree), whereas the force of the hatchet is usually under 3". Therefore, You will usually see much greater penetration when using a hatchet.

In the end, whether the axe or knife is a better tool for a specific task is highly dependent on indivdual preference, strenght, skill level and technique. Efficient use of an axe is highly dependant on accuracy, which takes some time for many people to develop. For many people, including me, skill in use of a big knife is easier to develop ands safer. For that reason "better" is usually subjective as a normative statement.

However, in my experience, when you are talking about chopping wood, usually you are felling or bucking, for either of these tasks my tool of choice is a saw. Saws replaced axes for a very good reason in the lumber industry. Large blades and axes still have a place in my tool kit, but it is usually brush work, limbing and splitting.

I am currently testing a Ranger Knives RD9, part of the testing will be a direct comparison to a small axe, probably a GB SFA and an Estwing Hatchet [modifed], in regards to chopping ability as well as splitting rounds.

I do not publish the results of my tests here, because I have no desire to be the subject of irrelavent personal attacks, but will make the results available to those who wish to see them. Estimated time to completion is ~90 days.
 
knifetester said:
Usually, the size and type of line being cut would be listed, i.e. 1" hemp rope. There is not really that much variance among rope brands and batches that it would induce a catostraphic skew in the results.
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Oh, fine. That changes my view of the rope cutting test. Thanks.

BTW KnifeTester, do you have a website where we can read your reviews? I would be very interested.

Thanks in advance.
 
knifetester - Yeah, but saws are so, well, so not knives...lol. Most of my chopping chores revolve around preparing wood for my barbecue pit. The pit works best with alder no greater than four inches in diameter, so an axe is not needed, and one would actually be more fatiguing than a lighter blade when it comes to the limbing aspect of the job. Also, a nice long blade makes an excellent pull knife for skinning the bark off rounds before they go in the fire box. Bark is bad when it comes to barbecue. I like both my Busses and my Fehrman for this kind of chore. I have not experienced the edge problems with my Fehrman Cliff did with his, but then I have not hammered it through frozen knots and such.

Small hatchets have a tendency to glance away from wood if not wielded properly, and that glance can end up in significant part of your leg. Knives will glance too, but because the wedge of the grind is not as pronounced as a hatchet the angle of the glance isn't either. In other words, a large knife is easier for me to control and therefore safer from an accidental injury perspective. Axes have much longer handles and for that reason tend to glance far enough away from the body to prevent those kind of injuries common to small hatchet use.

There's a reason khukuris have such a good reputation as choppers. They combine the best characteristics of a large knife with the penetration and heft of a hatchet or small axe. The angle of the blade doesn't hurt either.
 
Eric Isaacson said:
Nope, they don't cut anything well, not even those 2770 pieces of 1" hemp :rolleyes: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ry Busse rope cutting Blade Show&pagenumber=1

And check out post #9 in this thread. Someone that knows a few things about hunting and working in the scrub calls one of those knives that "don't cut anything" a "true all around bush blade"
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319773

I'm glad that you told me how poor they are, I sure wouldn't have known by reading any of the threads of people who really use them :rolleyes:

If you don't like Busses don't buy them, but to speak about them with such little evidence to support your claims is just plain poor. You've owned 1 knife of the thousands Busse has sold, your post is pretty bold with such a small sampling.
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Are you trying to say you didn't like my joke? Ha ha ha ha...

I tell you what, give me one of those thinner-ground Busse knives and let the knife change my mind.
 
Steelhed,
Thank you for the detailed explanation of your uses, your preference for a big knife under those circumstances is very logical.

I agree with your view of the safety aspects as well. A hatchet can be a very dangerous tool if not used properly. Ron Hood has written about this as well.

There's a reason khukuris have such a good reputation as choppers. They combine the best characteristics of a large knife with the penetration and heft of a hatchet or small axe. The angle of the blade doesn't hurt either.
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My experience has been just the opposite, I find Khuks ( I have used HI and Cold Steel) to be much more prone to glancing, as well the traditional round handle can really cause the big khuk to deflect badly as it can roll under a hard impact much easier than a highly indexable knife. Chris Reeves one piece line has a bit of the same issue, however it is at a lower level due to the extreme abbrasiveness of the handle, which is basically a rasp.

Again, this just illustrates that what tool is "best" is a personal choice. Some people don't experience the same issue with Khuks that I do and love them.

Dalko:
BTW KnifeTester, do you have a website where we can read your reviews? I would be very interested.
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Dalko, check you email.

I have several reviews written and are on a website, but to very, very honest I am very hesitant to post links to them due to the insane level of personal attacks that occur whenever a knife reviewer expresses an opinion that is counter to the accepted mob mentality. Simply witness what has occured on this thread as an example. That is why I post under a screen name as well.

I do not get paid to write reviews, I do it for fun. It is not fun for me to be attacked and ridiculed. I hope you understand why I will not post links here.
 
knifetester - Your reply to Dalko appears to me to be a bit of a cop out. Yes, you will be attacked here, yes you will be villified if you choose to denigrate one of the popular brands, even though you are telling the truth from your experience. But, man, that's life. Take it and roll with it. Cliff does it very well, he rolls with it and keeps on going. The more honest tests posted here the better the forum. As long as you are honest with yourself, the rest of us can be damned. Trade your knowledge and receive in kind. Everyone has to separate the wheat from the chafe. :)
 
Yes, it does sound like a cop out, and that is fine with me. Another conclusion that could be drawn is that I have never written a review and am clueless about knife design, material science and knife use. That is fine with me too.

What would not be fine with me is spending many hours writing a review, and then being attacked for expressing my opinion and observations.

Yes, Cliff deals with this very well, I would not. Not at all.

I review knives for fun, and because I learn from the process. They are published, but not on sites where personal atacks of any kind are tolerated.

Again, if this is cop out, that is fine with me. I am here to learn, and I can not learn when I have been insulted or attacked. Again, just view what has happened in this thread alone and that is all the confirmation that I need.

Please do not ask again, I will not change my mind. I apologize if that bothers you, but it is my position and I ask that you respect it.
 
knifetester - It doesn't matter whether I respect your view or not. It's yours. That's my point. The posers and keyboard cowboys who attack honest posts mean nothing. Only good information and honesty matter.

If you haven't written a review, and you call yourself knifetester then you better get busy because you can test till the cows come home, but if you don't share what you learn what good is it to me, and I have a right to know. ;)

Hey, it's up to you what you do with your information. It's nice to share though. :)
 
Knifetester,

I'd be interested in seeing your review of the RD9 too. I just bought one and am putting it through it's paces and would be interested in seeing what someone else comes up with.
 
knifetester said:
Yes, it does sound like a cop out ...
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No, it sounds like someone who would rather engage in productive discussion than deal with nonsense from a bunch of cultists and hype pushing makers. Nothing wrong with that. It is supposed to be a fun hobby, it is easy to understand why that type of conflict would not be.

This is the reason why I wish the mods here would be more aggressive in dealing with personal attacks. Challenges should be encouraged, counter arguements, a demand for clarification and proof, etc. . But the minute you cross the line and go personal it should be shut down and hard.

This was the entire idea behind Bladeforums when it was opened as it says in the rules, use logic, facts and reason. Not a hard concept to grasp.

The entire reason that those people make those attacks is to prevent people like Knifetester from posting their results. People who overhype products are very afraid of facts, it is sad day when they succeed.

It isn't just the mods either, the population as a whole needs to decide what it wants to see, open discussion of performance, the good and the bad, or simply fluff which talkes about how great a knife is without every talking about what it can't do, or what another knife can do in comparison.

Right now if you want a hype and cult free atmosphere the best place for general discussion is rec.knives, for steel info check the materials subforum on Sword Forums.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Right now if you want a hype and cult free atmosphere the best place for general discussion is rec.knives, for steel info check the materials subforum on Sword Forums.

-Cliff
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Hi Cliff,

could you please provide me the links for both references you just mentioned?

Could find the Sword Forums website, but not the material subforum you mentioned and couldn't find rec.knives, even with google.

Thanks a lot.
 
What about some photos Cliff? I was looking at ordering one of these last night and came across your post this morning.

Give me a Red or Green light my friend.... :)
 
My camera went south awhile ago, still have not picked up a new one. The blade was returned a few weeks back.

-Cliff
 
Update, to answer a question posed early on about the damage through batoning in relation to the steel or the thickness being the critical factor. The Extreme Judgement was 0.027-0.028" thick at the edge and ground at 15-16 degrees per side.

I repeated the heavy batoning finally with another knife with a similar edge profile, a custom Bowie in D2 from Heafner knives which was 0.030-0.032" thick at the edge and ground at 16-18 degrees per side. Just 0.002-0.003", and 1-2 degrees more obtuse, this is at the point where you would have to be *really* careful in measuring to notice a difference. The Heafner is also hollow ground where the Extreme Judgement was flat.

The batoning on the Heafner was just as heavy, if not heavier because I wrapped the handle to allow heavier impacts to be used as otherwise the shock would be too excessive. The Heafner took small chips on the edge similar to the Fehrman, slightly larger, however there was no gross rippling or cracking of the edge. Ref :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387992

-Cliff
 
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