Factors contributing to the lock failure of a Spyderco Pacific Salt

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May 1, 2004
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How I cut open my favorite knife with a Roto-Zip.

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A small backstory; I purchased the knife from Newgraham.com in late August 2004. It was my first name-brand "tactical" knife and I gave it a fairly excellent review here. Flying in the face of my usual convention I purchased this knife before I actually needed it; being that it was sometime later when I found my other folders were rusting in the environment I worked in and this funny looking knife I had purchased earlier was virtually impervious to such issues. All told I carried this knife for a total of 2 year and 4 months, using it a bare minimum of 15 times a day; that comes to a lowball average of 12,000+ open and close cycles over the 3 years I owned this knife. As mentioned previously the knife served as my work knife as well as my EDC. The duties performed by it were endless; including small amounts of prying and chopping as well as the more common knife tasks that actually involve cutting something. At the time of this report the knife was still fully-functional, wear included a much looser pivot, allowing inertia openings from any conceivable grip, minor damage to the FRN around the pocket clip and some rusting around the rivet support washer. Although the lock on the knife functioned fine it would fail a spine whack test and it had become possible to break the lock with just hand pressure, this being the first instance of such behavior I have experienced firsthand. No bladeplay was noted before or after the damage to the lock.

However, the wear on the lock was not directly linked to normal use but to abuse subject to the knife 6 months ago. At that time the knife was used to strike a heavy glass bottle with the spine in a moderate half-overhead swing. Upon striking the bottle the lock failed and caused the knife to partially close, no injury occured. It was noted immediately afterward that there was a small raised area on the lock-grove of the blade, caused by the impact and subsequent lock failure. Shortly after observing this several spine whack tests were performed; varying in force and impact location on the blade. The lock failed on all but the lightest impacts nearest the pivot. The knife was retired from use and hung on a lanyard in my shower where it sat until last week when I reconnected with it and started carrying it as my EDC again. The knife performed fine during the week but the lock failed during normal use a few days ago. During a light vertical stab into a paper cap on a bottle of soap the lock broke and the knife partially folded, again no injury occured but I was convinced the knife finally needed to be retired for good.

Not the lack of force needed to hand close the blade, I didn't even feel the need to dull the edge before doing it.



Now, as any fan of Spyderco knows, posting a detailed problem report in their forums usually entices a response from Mr. Glesser to send the knife in to get checked out. Often there is no report made by the company, which is normal behavior on their part and excellent service to the user anyway. The problem is the by and large most of the users are not privy to the why and how of lock failures. After thinking about it for a short time I decided to deconstruct my knife in the name of furthering the knowledge of the user base. I paid a around 50$ for this knife 3 years ago and I feel I have received my money's worth and have no expectation of making or receiving suggestions to return this knife.

After a small but delicious lunch of Chipotle I pulled out my rotary tools and went to work. First I attempted to grind the heads of the rivets off with a Dremel tool, this approach worked excellently. Rivets removed I begun to cut around the handle, the cutting disk could not spin fast enough to effectively finish this task so I brought out a much larger tool, the mighty Roto-Zip. Making short work of the FRN and creating quite a bit of debris I popped the handle off and begun the investigation into what made the lock fail.

Pictures first, theories to follow.

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Note the fouling where the lock and the tang meet, this was a combination of oil, lint and small pieces of metal. It's hard to capture just how minute the damage to the lock is, it's obvious to eye but not to the camera.

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The small red circles note the location of either rolled metal from stress or wear marks that do not seem to come from regular use as studied after disassembly.

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The knife before disassembly, note the reflecting light from the tang this is rolled metal that can be felt with finger and is very obvious to the eye.

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Same as above.
 
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Note that the lockbar does not evenly interact with the tang of the blade, wearing on one side only.


After examing all the contact points for the lockbar, the tang of the blade and the pivot pins and holes I think a combination of damage sustained due to heavy spine impact and fouling on and around the lock mating surface caused the lock to fail easily and consistently. I am curious if their is a way to remove the fouling from the lock mating surfaces since disassembly for cleaning is impossible. This knife was run through a industrial dish machine several times a week and hand washed daily but their still seems to be significant fouling where there is no way to clean. Perhaps some toothpick acrobatics and compressed air are in order for my other riveted lockbacks.

On the other hand I think the fouling was minor enough to be incidental had the lock surface not been damaged.

I am curious what role the unevenness of the lock face played, noting that the lock face was skewed to one side and as such force from spine pressure would not be delivered evenly and would seem to weaken the lock as a whole. The amount of unevenness may have not been an issue, it seems like this problem would have to be independently occuring to be studied.

So, what does the Bladeforums hivemind think?
 
I think you should have sent it in so Sal could evaluate the fit, wear pattern, heat treatment, and specific damage with an eye to preventing a repeat. I also think intentionally using the knife "to strike a heavy glass bottle with the spine in a moderate half-overhead swing" was a major contributing factor to the failure, as well as not being a very bright idea.
 
Well, one would prevent a repeat by not hitting things with the spine of a knife. The knife was abused and became unusable, it is always a good idea to have the company inspect the product that fails (even abuse) but enough people have sent knives back to Spyderco; one needed to be popped open by a user and checked out. If I send it back doesn't Spyderco keep it? I don't want a new knife from them, as I said above, I have already gotten my money's worth. I'll get this one re-handled myself.

I also think intentionally using the knife "to strike a heavy glass bottle with the spine in a moderate half-overhead swing" was a major contributing factor to the failure,

Of course it was, but why?
 
The handle looks like it was in pretty good shape before the dremel/rotozip work so I don't see a new handle helping with a damaged lock. Even if the lock could be fixed, is it worth the trouble of having someone fix it and then rehandle a $50 knife? I would opt to get a new knife and then not spine whack it on a heavy glass bottle in a half-overhead swing.

I'm planning on upgrading to Micarta/G10 and screw construction. I think I can fix the lock, I just need to photograph it a little better before starting.

The knife has a lot of intrinsic worth to me and still has a lot of life left in the blade, it bugged the crap out of me that it was broken so I had to disassemble so I could rebuild it.
 
I also think intentionally using the knife "to strike a heavy glass bottle with the spine in a moderate half-overhead swing" was a major contributing factor to the failure, as well as not being a very bright idea.

Of course it was, but why?

Because a locking blade is not the same as a fixed blade. A locking blade is never as strong. In striking hard with the spine, you are asking the lock to do something it is really not meant to do.
 
Because a locking blade is not the same as a fixed blade. A locking blade is never as strong. In striking hard with the spine, you are asking the lock to do something it is really not meant to do.

I was saying that when the power went off here :D

The lock on a folding knife is like the seatbelt on a car. It is there to help protect you from damage in an accident. It does NOT make a folding knife into a fixed blade. Spine whacking on a hard surface in a moderate half-overhead swing is kind of like crashing your car into a brick wall at 20 mph to make sure your seat belts are working.

If you really want to know why the lock was damaged, try this exercise. First, measure the distance from the center of the pivot hole to the tip of the blade. Then measure the distance from the center of the pivot to the center of the lock face (the part that was damaged). Divide the first measurement by the second measurement. This will tell you the mechanical advantage or force multiplication factor. Now estimate the amount of force applied to the spine of the blade in your swing, and multiply by the ratio you just calculated to get the amout of force applied to the lock face. You may discover you applied a couple of hundred pounds of force to that lock face. If you want to scare yourself a little more, figure out the surface area of the lock face and calculate how many pounds of force that works out to per square inch.

Still wonder why it was damaged?
 
Spoonrobot, I applaud your efforts to not only discover the exact cause of your knife's lock failure, but your efforts to share the details with us through your description and your excellent photos. My first thought was along the lines of "Holy "cow," he sure did expect a lot from a $50 lockback folding knife!" You got a couple of years of constant, vigorous daily use from the knife, and then, in my opinion, you abused it, as well. I think you understand this, though, so I won't belabor the point. Thanks again for sharing your findings with us.
 
Nice pics spoonrobot. It looks like the rolled edge reduces the mating surface on the lock. If you resurfaced the notch and made a new lockbar it may be repairable. Thanks for the disassembly.
 
I would be your spring is weaker, your lock cuttout is worn at the edge as is the lock bar, and you can really check now, but your lockbar is loose.
 
Seems like some of you guys are missing the point. I know the knife was abused, I know folders are not fixed blades, I already knew all the stuff you have said. Also, my description of the incident involving the abuse may have colored most of your perceptions, the overhead swing was the motion but the amount of force subjected to the lock was akin to a hard spinewhack. What I did not know was that hard impacts to the spine of the blade cause the lock to become damaged due to rolling of certain surfaces of the lock bar and the engagement notch on the tang.

Most of the posters here have head about failing locks but most have not ever seen just what the damage looked like that caused the failure (in theory).



It looks like the rolled edge reduces the mating surface on the lock.

That was the point of disassembly. I had some small visible indication of what kind of damage to the lock occured but I had no way of examining the lock bar. Before taking it apart I was almost sure that I had broken a large piece of the lockbar off and that was causing the knife to fail, turns out the damage was much more minute than expected.
 
Spoonrobot,
Great review and pics! I have to wonder if the fact that both the lockbar and the blade are made from H1 steel has anything to do with the way the lock and tang notch wear. I mean, I wonder if they wear differently than other steels that interact in the same capacity. I know H1 makes an extrodinary "stain proof" blade, but I don't know exactly how it functions in the role of a lockbar, aside from the fact that it is corrosion proof.

I know Sal has mentioned certain "quirks" about H1 steel here before, like the fact that they are unable to make a blade any thicker than 3mm due to how the steel is rolled/worked. I also think I remember him saying that they would be unable to make a fully flat-ground blade out of it, also for the same reasons. I wonder if there is a "trade-off" so to speak, like sacrificing some in terms of lock wear in order to have a totally corrosion proof lockbar. I guess only Sal and the steel experts would know something like that. Maybe they'll sound in.

Thanks,
3G
 
Just thought of something! H1 has been touted as a "work hardening" steel, right? Perhaps the friction and wear (work) on the lockbar/tang notch interface, caused by repeatedly opening and closing the blade, made that area harden to the point where the respective edges (corners) began damaging each other. Is that even plausible?

Disclaimer: I am in no way, shape, or form a metallurgist. I'm just very curious.

Regards,
3G
 
In my experience there is no sure fire fix for the knife short of recutting the notch in the blade and making a new lock bar with crisp sharp proper angle cuts to mate to the new notch mate up as the old one did or as close as can be and it would for sure cost more to do than a new knife.

Undoubtedly you have both indented and rounded the contacts of the lock and blade where they used to be sharp accurate mate ups, and in combination they cause this 'bump and run' sequence of events that takes place from a spine tap or as you did on the coke bottle a spine whack which is much more severe.. Some praise is given to the design IMO because it just goes to prove there were no stress risers or real faults in how the notch was cut on either piece or how they mated up. Normally when there are there is shearing off of metal somewhere. I've seen them where the lock bar sheared right off and even had one knife sent to me where the blade lost the portion of the back of the contact from shearing.

Your situation with a sudden shock to the spine is typical of why any lock, even a good one is capable of closing in a heartbeat. You have two pieces of metal meeting together. A sudden shock puttting great force into that mating means that something has to give. In this event the path of least resistance, the lockbar, is what gives and at the same time the harder blade indents into it causing an area that can allow the movement to take place, and it looks like the blade indented also in this case in another area. As the blade forces its way into the lockbar to indent in and the lockbar does the same thing it creates a space for movement and the lockbar has no choice but to move up because of the blunt force trauma of the spine shock, which it does. A contination of this movement from repeating the experiment further indents it, and at the same time rounds off the contacts of both blade and lockbar allowing easier roll over if you will, to allow easier and easier defeats of the lock.

In review once again, it appears from your pictures to confirm this. With the edges crisp and clean as they once were they do their job and hold, but the sudden shock and force of the blow caused the indenting which rounded off the parts of the metal that once were crisp. I see this in a couple of your shots as they appear now to me. I think its just this simple. The rounded edges allow this lift up to carry forward with the lockbar in shocks now and the blade rolls open out of the lock from the dents that allow instant movement in conjunction with the rounded edges allowing it to free itself from the seating or mate up.


STR
 
Spoonrabbit - Well, you have an interesting knife project to do. Thank you for posting. It is interesting to know how and why failures occur.
 
I guess maybe I'm getting old. I could have told you what you were going to find before you destroyed the already damaged knife, just from what I learned in junior high school.

Measuring your pictures on my screen shows me a ratio of about 17:1 between the blade length and the lock length. That means any closing force applied to the tip will be multiplied by 17 when it is transmitted to the lock face. That lock face has a surface area of about 3 square millimeters, or about .005 square inches. Tapping the tip of the blade on a hard surface with a force of 5 pounds is exerting a force of 17,000 pounds per square inch on the lockface. Doing that repeatedly is going to cause peening, no matter what kind of steels are involved. A heavy spine whack of 20 pounds exerts a force of 68,000 pounds per square inch to the lock face.

That is why I cringe every time someone mentions spine whacking their knife. It WILL cause damage over time.
 
That is why I cringe every time someone mentions spine whacking their knife. It WILL cause damage over time.

Me also. Its also why I kind of laugh off extreme claims of "hard use folders" and a lot of the other stories you hear and recommend fixed blades for the hard use stuff.

Good info my friend. A little late for both of us to save this one though. :D

STR
 
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