Factory ege is irrelevant

Shmackey said:
It would probably take me about an hour to take a crappy edge (e.g., 1999 Benchmade) to polished-Spydie condition.
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Unless you are significantly changing the angle this takes about five minutes on a ~4" blade even so badly blunt you can see damage.

Start with an x-coarse SiC waterstone to set the edge, remove all damage, then clear the edge with a 1000 grit stone, then micro bevel.

Dijos said:
I meant how are you (the manufacturer) going to know if it's heat treated correctly.
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The fact that it is sharp doesn't tell you anything. The steel could not even be heat treated and still be made very sharp.

I don't think it is too much to ask for a knife to be sharp NIB, but it isn't something that is very valuable on a working knife for reasons noted.

A working knife is sharpened thousands of times in its lifetime, one less is hardly significant.

Customs are a different case because I think you can expect customs to recieve individual inspections.

The top makers I know will do individual testing on thier knives and you need to sharpen them to check several aspects.

-Cliff
 
But for those of us who actually use their knives (and all of mine get used) we expect an edge right out of the box.
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We who? I use my knives, and like I said, I don't care about the edge from the factory.

Ask around butcher-shops, military bases, construction sites, wilderness schools, etc...ask how many expect to buy a dull knife brand new?
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It's not about expecting to, it's about not caring one way or the other. I don't expect it to be dull, but I don't care if it is, just like I said in the first post.

So, when you buy flat-tip screwdrivers, you don't really mind if they're rounded abit?
I mean after all, sooner or later you're going to have to file them flat again, right?
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No, I have never had to file a screwdriver blade flat again, ever.

Do you mine dull drill bits?
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And I don't usually sharpen drill bits either.

[/quote]How about a dull saw blade?[/quote]

Or saws.


Oh yes, sharpening a new knife is exactly like having to buy a door for a new ferrari, tires for a car, and any of the other comparisons in this thread.
Good god but some of this is just plain silly and of no interest at all.
Some kind of valid comparison would at least make sense, but this fantasy stuff is just pointless.

Again, how many knives are any of you sending back because they were not sharp enough for you, and did you actually say that was why you were sending it back for a refund? And did that dealer still want to do business with you after that?

Obviously everyone has different expectations....
 
A lot of this isn't addressing the real question. If a factory knife comes with a less-than-scary-sharp edge, is this a problem for you? It should not be. You're going to be cutting stuff with it, and you will be sharpening it soon anyway. If you don't know how, it's not a big deal to learn.

A knifemaker will sharpen them one at a time, the knife is a work of art, or at least of craftsmanship. Sure they should be sharp. A factory will run them through an assembly line. At least some will slip a bit. Cheap, and easily repaired.

The middle ground is a different problem. Factory knives with high tech steels or difficult geometry, like that M2 710. Tough luck, you bought a hard knife to sharpen. Now is a good time to learn.
 
Keeping the "car example":
Having a brand new car coming without the proper wheel torques, proper tire pressures and proper fluid levels is not very professional. Now if that car once fixed by yourself lasts years in good conditions, I'd say I'd prefer it over a car comes ready to go out of factory but won't be as good as the other one in the long run.
Question might be would prefer a clean honda civic over a ferrari missing a door (actually in our knife perspective, I'd rather say a dirty ferrari). If you can find a ferrarri or equivalentwith the door from another seller for same price, fine.
 
I love really sharp factory edges. The main reason: often times that's the sharpest the knife will ever be. I am a fan of Spyderco and they have all came extremely sharp. My Al Mar Sere 2k came outrageously sharp. My Benchmades all came sharp as well. All of them came sharper than i can usually get myself. I've had a few knives that came dull and each time i was a little disappointed. I know how to sharpen knives on my sharpmaker and i can get them easily sharp enough to shave. That is generally plenty good for me, but i can never get them as sharp as the really sharp factory edges. I have spent a lot of time sharpening and just cant do it as well as some people.

Because of that, i love getting a brand new knife with a ridiculously sharp edge. Frankly, its just really fun. That first few days with a new knife is fun for me. I cut everything i see, whether it needs to be cut or not. If the knife doesnt come sharp then i'm always a little bummed.

Also, to those of you on the opposing end of the argument, i think you may have too many knife nut friends. My friends and family and I all have working jobs (electricians, construction, firefighter, police officers, etc.) and we all use knives. In fact, some of my friends use their knives way more and way harder than i do (and im supposed to be the knife nut of the bunch, even though i dont even compare to most of you on this forum). But anyways, out of all of them the only ones that know how to sharpen a knife are my dad and my grandpa. All my friends and everyone close to my age (I'm 24) almost never sharpen their knives, and i actually have to ask to take their knives home with me once in a while to sharpen them because i cant stand really dull knives. In fact they wouldnt even have high quality knives if it werent for me. I love giving knives as presents, so most of them have at least one Spyderco or Benchmade from a birthday or graduation. I mean i've even asked them about their co-workers and they've said that almost none of them carry a nice knife, and they never sharpen them. My one friend is an electrician and he said that on his current job site everybody uses 5 dollar knives and they just throw em away when they get dull. If that's the case, then they must really value a good factory edge.

What it comes down to is that unless you are really into knives, you dont learn or care to learn how to sharpen. It seems stupid that someone would use such an important tool everyday and not maintain it, but that's just how most people are. I know many cops that dont clean and oil their gun after qualifying. It blows my mind, but i see it all the time.

Lastly, i say to the original poster, if i could get my knives as sharp you probably can, then i wouldnt care much either. But i still definately understand why its a big selling point and why its so important to a lot of us.
 
factory edge is very important to me because I dont sharpen knives myself - I have never learned how to, and I do not own a sharpener. I know I should, I've meant to for quite some time now, but never have. One of the things I love about Spyderco's is they come so dang sharp! Can a person get them any sharper than that?? If so I wouldn't want it, as it is I cant even touch my calypso blade without cutting my finger off. I like benchmades also because they offer the lifesharp program - I'll be sending in my 732 soon actually. So, for a "non-sharpener", factory edge IS relevant. I'd be pissed if I bought a 50-150 dollar knife and it wasn't sharp.
 
jujawa said:
My one friend is an electrician and he said that on his current job site everybody uses 5 dollar knives and they just throw em away when they get dull. If that's the case, then they must really value a good factory edge.
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Olfa knives are common for tradesmen for this reason, you can buy a 10 pack of blades for a few dollars and they are rarely sharpened. In that case the factory edge is a critical aspect of performance as they are not actually meant to be sharpened, they actually break a lot in use.

However for the other knives you mention, folders and fixed blades, consider that even if the blades were very sharp when new, and even if they are never sharpened by the user, how valuable is it really? I give knives to my brother all the time (carpentry) and one week later the edge is seriously dull, usually visibly rolled and/or chipped.

Thus assuming he carried the knife for 20 years and never sharpened it, how valuable is it that it was sharp for the first week? If people are carrying and using dull knives then obviously initial sharpness isn't that critical because sharpness in general they don't care about.

-Cliff
 
The bottom line is that, as exemplified in this thread, there are many people who will not buy knife brands that come with less than sharp edges.
There are not many people, if any, who will not buy a knife brand solely because it comes with a sharp edge. Knife manufacturers are in the business of selling knives, not driving away customers. Ergo, sharp knives out of the box. It's really that simple.
 
Yeah.. I liked the clothes analogy best. You're going to wash your clothes many, many times over the course of it's ownership, anyways. Put your own clean on it. One more washing shouldn't be a big deal... but do you really want to buy a new shirt with stains on it?

It's not really a question of laziness. It's economics. Taking more time to sharpen an edge is going to cost the manufacturer money. This has to be passed onto the customer. Do most people want to pay that? If yes, it makes sense to sharpen the knives out. If not, it doesn't need to be done.
 
Eric_425 said:
You're going to wash your clothes many, many times over the course of it's ownership, anyways. Put your own clean on it. One more washing shouldn't be a big deal...
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It isn't uncommon for people to wash new clothes before wearing them. Stains would be problematic as they may not be removed and require generally more work than a simple washing. It would be akin to buying a knife with a chipped edge.

-Cliff
 
I think a more sensible clothes analogy would be getting a new shirt and finding that it was scratchy and creased until you washed it for the first time. Which is how it generaly is, in my experience. But then, maybe I just buy cheap shirts...
 
I think it says something about the manufacturer as to whether or not they (the mfr) cared enough to bother to extend the effort to please the customer with a sharp edge to begin with.

I also thnk the primary bevel angle says something about the mfr in that you don't have to re-profile the knife before you can sharpen it.

sal
 
Compare it to an automobile. If you buy a new car, you expect to pick it up all spic and span and filled with gas. Sure, you can wash the car yourself and fill the gas tank, but it is not what you would expect when getting it. I feel the same way about knives. I don't want work to do the minute a knife arrived. I want to be pleased with it and start cutting right away.
 
Yes it matters. We here are not the norm. Most knife users I know can't or don't sharpen worth a damn. I work for a 525 man fire dept. I float that is fill in for off duty LT'S all over the city. At each firehouse the guys hand me fists full of dull knives to sharpen.

Before hunting season I get even more and even some from the cops. Real life knife users by the boat load and they can't sharpen for crap.This is how the masses are.

Know what? I'd say at least half the knife users don't even know what BRAND name knife they own much less what steel it is or how to sharpen it.

Which is why I often say to guys buy and Endura or Delica, comes sharp and for a fin they put the factory edge back on, guys love that.
 
Dijos said:
It should be evident that sharpening is part of the job of manufacturing, and is important to final useability, and testability. How are you going to know if it's heat treated right?
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I agree wholeheartedly.

If a manufacturer can't seem to accomplish something as basic and simple as putting a decent edge on a knife, I'm not convinced that they can do a good job at more complex jobs like tempering.
 
Quiet Storm said:
If a manufacturer can't seem to accomplish something as basic and simple as putting a decent edge on a knife, I'm not convinced that they can do a good job at more complex jobs like tempering.
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They are usually not done by the same people, and one should never be used to judge the other.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
They are usually not done by the same people, and one should never be used to judge the other.
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That was just an example. Another would be: can I trust their customer service department if the guys at their qc department apparently don't do their jobs?
 
Busse Combat and Swamp Rat knives had both had issues with delivery times and similar issues of customer service, billing and similar. However their quality control has always been exceedingly high and they go to great lengths to insure a very low defect rate. They just see one aspect as being much more important than the other and differnet people are in charge of each section.

-Cliff
 
Sal Glesser said:
I think it says something about the manufacturer as to whether or not they (the mfr) cared enough to bother to extend the effort to please the customer with a sharp edge to begin with.

I also thnk the primary bevel angle says something about the mfr in that you don't have to re-profile the knife before you can sharpen it.

sal
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Thank you, Sal. That's just one of the reasons I own more than two dozen Spyderco knives and plan to buy more, even though the primary focus of my collecting is custom knives.
 
Sal Glesser said:
I think it says something about the manufacturer as to whether or not they (the mfr) cared enough to bother to extend the effort to please the customer with a sharp edge to begin with.

I also thnk the primary bevel angle says something about the mfr in that you don't have to re-profile the knife before you can sharpen it.

sal
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My two favorite reasons - for owning one or two of most other makes, but a dozen Spydercos. :)
 
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