Fags roller bearing chemistry...

M

Mike Krall

Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
834
I ran a thread up in SFI metallurgy and "Robert C.", aka "mete" sent me here looking for Scott Ickes. Here are the two posts.
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I had a piece of a Fags roller bearing (1.5" x 4") tested for chemistry. The consensious was it would be 52100. The chemistry didn't match 52100 and I can't get the steel figured out on MatWeb http://www.matweb.com/... keeps coming up general catagories like 4000 series, 5000 series, etc.

Anyhow, I'd like to know what the Fags roller bearing steel is and could use some help identifying it.

C- 0.90, Mn- 1.03, Si- 0.53, Ni- 0.09, Cr- 0.92, Mo- 0.03

Not enough carbon or chrome for 52100 and too much manganese and silicon.

Thanks,

Mike
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From Robert C...

There is a family of similar bearing steels of which one is 52100. The FAG alloy has very high Mn which is strange.Bearing alloys have much lower Mn .If you are on Bladeforums you could ask Scott Ickes who works for Timken.
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MIke
 
there are at least five different recipes for 52100. that looks closer to 51100 though. But I don't recall actual numbers.
 
looked it up on the www and everything but the mn. is right in line with 51100. However in one area it was stated that this alloy is very often modified to customer requirements ie.. higher mn. for more abrasion resistance and through hardening.
 
I've got no idea what it is, but I will say that with the Mn content up that high it would probably etch beautifully in damascus. You'd get a nice dark black from it I'd bet.

-d
 
Bill Burke said:
looked it up on the www and everything but the mn. is right in line with 51100. However in one area it was stated that this alloy is very often modified to customer requirements ie.. higher mn. for more abrasion resistance and through hardening.
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Part of the reason I asked about the steel is my resource (Heat Treaters Guide) made it look like it wasn't 51100 either: 51100 AISI & UNS ~ .98-1.10 C, 0.25-0.40 Mn, 0.15-0.30 Si, 0.90-1.15 Cr. I've got an old listing for 50100 and it is the same (not in HTG) with less Cr... like 0.50.

I understand what you are saying, though... understand mete's "family of bearing steels", too. Was just hoping some one could tie it down to specific, known steel with data.

Just looked my original post and noticed I forgot to say Fags is a European bearing maker (so I was told).

Thanks, Bill...

Mike
 
deker said:
I've got no idea what it is, but I will say that with the Mn content up that high it would probably etch beautifully in damascus. You'd get a nice dark black from it I'd bet.

-d
Click to expand...

Not like I know first hand, but I've read alloy steels with chrome can be problematic in damascus... not sticking is what I remember. Both the high carbon and manganese would make it pretty black, though. Me, I'd like some 85-86 point carbon, O2... 1.40-1.80 Mn range, a little V (0.30 Max), but hold the 0.50 Cr Max & 0.30 Mo Max, please.

Mike
 
Mike Krall said:
Not like I know first hand, but I've read alloy steels with chrome can be problematic in damascus... not sticking is what I remember. Both the high carbon and manganese would make it pretty black, though. Me, I'd like some 85-86 point carbon, O2... 1.40-1.80 Mn range, a little V (0.30 Max), but hold the 0.50 Cr Max & 0.30 Mo Max, please.

Mike
Click to expand...

If you treat it right you can make just about anything weld. It might take dry welding to make it happen, but it can happen. Heck, I've accidentally welded used stainless HT foil to high carbon steel and mild steel. Let me tell you, that's no fun to grind off when you had expected that the HT foil would let the can peel off because it "shouldn't weld" ;)

-d
 
For some reason, I am so very afraid to click that link. I'm not even actually homophobic, but that link frightens me nonetheless.
 
The steel is FAG's version of A485-1. The difference in the steel chemistry is for increased hardenability in larger cross section bearings. A bearing with cross sections larger than about 1/2" won't harden all the way through if it is made of 52100. See the attached chart.

For knifemaking purposes, you can heat treat it identically to 52100.

Just for grins and giggles I'm going to guess at the part number and see how close I come to getting it right after Mike Krall reads this post and checks it. The numbers in Bold Black will be the ones that I'm almost positive are correct and the ones in Bold Red will be the ones that I'm not completely sure about. 22348YMBW33 is my guess. Now, the 223 could be 240 or 244 or 248 or something similar, but the very first number (the first 2) IS correct. The YMB could be a CJ. There may also be a C3 at the very end of the part number.

So, how close did I come? :thumbup: or :thumbdn:
 

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Dan Zawacki said:
For some reason, I am so very afraid to click that link. I'm not even actually homophobic, but that link frightens me nonetheless.
Click to expand...

Try working for FAG and wanting to pass out hats and shirts with your company logo on it. Now that is something that you won't be very successful at accomplishing.
 
scottickes said:
The steel is FAG's version of A485-1. The difference in the steel chemistry is for increased hardenability in larger cross section bearings. A bearing with cross sections larger than about 1/2" won't harden all the way through if it is made of 52100. See the attached chart.

For knifemaking purposes, you can heat treat it identically to 52100.

Just for grins and giggles I'm going to guess at the part number and see how close I come to getting it right after Mike Krall reads this post and checks it. The numbers in Bold Black will be the ones that I'm almost positive are correct and the ones in Bold Red will be the ones that I'm not completely sure about. 22348YMBW33 is my guess. Now, the 223 could be 240 or 244 or 248 or something similar, but the very first number (the first 2) IS correct. The YMB could be a CJ. There may also be a C3 at the very end of the part number.

So, how close did I come? :thumbup: or :thumbdn:
Click to expand...


Scott,

That is exactly the information I was hoping for. Thank you very much.

And now I'm going to disappoint you... temporarily. The big box of FAG's roller bearings is 45 miles from here so hopping right out to the shop with a paper and pencil isn't going to happen. I may be able to get the information tomorrow but it may take a few days longer. I will report back.

Thanks again, Scott...

Mike
 
scottickes said:
The steel is FAG's version of A485-1. The difference in the steel chemistry is for increased hardenability in larger cross section bearings. A bearing with cross sections larger than about 1/2" won't harden all the way through if it is made of 52100. See the attached chart.

For knifemaking purposes, you can heat treat it identically to 52100.

Just for grins and giggles I'm going to guess at the part number and see how close I come to getting it right after Mike Krall reads this post and checks it. The numbers in Bold Black will be the ones that I'm almost positive are correct and the ones in Bold Red will be the ones that I'm not completely sure about. 22348YMBW33 is my guess. Now, the 223 could be 240 or 244 or 248 or something similar, but the very first number (the first 2) IS correct. The YMB could be a CJ. There may also be a C3 at the very end of the part number.

So, how close did I come? :thumbup: or :thumbdn:
Click to expand...

Scott,

Finally got to where the roller bearing stash is... not a number on a one of them. The owner said he thought all the races did but they are long gone.

Mike
 
Mike Krall said:
Scott,

Finally got to where the roller bearing stash is... not a number on a one of them. The owner said he thought all the races did but they are long gone.

Mike
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Clean the outer faces of the races with steel wool and acetone. Then use some Ferric Chloride and water 3:1 just like etching damascus. Apply the FC/Water mix on the faces of the bearing with a Q-tip. Keep at it for a while. If the wear isn't too deep the numbers might etch back out. It's a little trick that I use to identify part numbers. It works about 20% of the time. The part number will usually be very faint if it does come back, so you'll need a really strong magnifying glass to see it.

Good luck.
 
Scott,

I'll try that when I get a chance... it's likely to be a while, though.

Mike
 
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gregrobinson said:
Roger that.
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FAG is an acronym for Fischers Aktien-Gesellschaft. FAG is part of INA, so the full company name is INA FAG. Or, hmmmmmm...In a fag.

They are a top tier bearing supplier and worthy competition for the company I work for.
 
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