Fair Tests of Folders

Yes, I agree. But those things are Load and Stress tests. It's a very specific type of testing that in reality is not done very often.

I think if you'll talk to watch manyfacturers that you'll find that very few of them actually test the limit of their watch when it comes to depth. Instead they'll aim for a certaqin depth that it should be able to withstand that they aimed for in design. Then when that depth is reached they'll most likely consider it a day. Testing beyond that and to the extreme limits is work intensive and expensive so it actually doesn't get done a lot.

How many manufacturers do you know of that will catra test each and every knife or each and every steel? Very few I think you'll find.

There's always a definition of done. Even Jim Ankerson does this....he'll cut untill a certain sharpness is reached and that's when he stops. Load and stress testing to the extreme limits is very rarely usefull and very rarely done. Only in cases of extreme life threatening danger is this usually the case. And guess what...knives don't generally pose such a heavy threat upon failure.
 
LX_Emergency said:
Yes, I agree. But those things are Load and Stress tests. It's a very specific type of testing that in reality is not done very often.

I think if you'll talk to watch manyfacturers that you'll find that very few of them actually test the limit of their watch when it comes to depth. Instead they'll aim for a certaqin depth that it should be able to withstand that they aimed for in design. Then when that depth is reached they'll most likely consider it a day. Testing beyond that and to the extreme limits is work intensive and expensive so it actually doesn't get done a lot.

How many manufacturers do you know of that will catra test each and every knife or each and every steel? Very few I think you'll find.

There's always a definition of done. Even Jim Ankerson does this....he'll cut untill a certain sharpness is reached and that's when he stops. Load and stress testing to the extreme limits is very rarely usefull and very rarely done. Only in cases of extreme life threatening danger is this usually the case. And guess what...knives don't generally pose such a heavy threat upon failure.
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And none of what you just said makes any kind of testing unfair. Yes, testing is limited by economics and practicality, but that in no way means that more testing or more extreme testing is unfair or bad. Hell, half the time it means the testing data we have is insufficient or incomplete.

There are plenty of excuses not to do certain testing, none of them are that the testing is inherently unfair.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
And none of what you just said makes any kind of testing unfair. Yes, testing is limited by economics and practicality, but that in no way means that more testing or more extreme testing is unfair or bad. Hell, half the time it means the testing data we have is insufficient or incomplete.

There are plenty of excuses not to do certain testing, none of them are that the testing is inherently unfair.
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True enough....unfair maybe not....stupid and useless sure.....but maybe not unfair.
 
LX_Emergency said:
True enough....unfair maybe not....stupid and useless sure.....but maybe not unfair.
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Some of it is, some of it isn't, personally I'll take whatever I can get. There is almost zero testing in the knife industry and only a very tiny percentage of the testing being done is at all formal or scientific. We buy knives based on hearsay, anecdotal evidence and faith, not on hard information. I've said that over and over and I stand by it, the knife industry can quite cheerfully lead us by the nose because we take so much on faith. Personally, I want hard information so I can make informed purchases, but that's simply not something we have access to.
 
Hi. I think testing folders with locking systems for lock strength it’s proper, since I maintain professional testing validates design, parts/components workmanship and assembly. Like a number of similar tests performed on different products, they are a verification that a specific (mechanical in this case) feature is designed and executed according to the given specs and works for the intended use in one product. There are no “unfair” tests, in my opinion. On the contrary, the more the better! It looks to me today serious knives brands/producers test their products fairly extensively. Sure there’s always space for improvement.

One thing I see, anyway, is testing is pretty boring thing. It’s probably one the most non-entertaining thing to watch. In professional scientific testing, there’s the need to have a structured sampling method and sampling plan, preparation and conditioning of the samples and the lab environment; the set-up of testing equipment, proper procedures and work instructions, the need to repeat the testing on all the samples, etc. It’s days, weeks, sometimes months of work. And it’s all very boring to watch. One can get a failure from time to time, but generally, on test specimens, it will be just a “pop” or a very small “crack”. No big “bangs” or “booms” or “crashes” one need nowadays to get people’s attention (and YT subscriptions :) ). Then there’s also the time needed to issue a report. Not a very exciting thing either, the test report. A list of numbers, maybe graphs, charts and a picture in the best cases.

It seems to me what happened instead lately is the “tests” have become a very popular and entertaining stuff. YT is full of “tests” and “testers”. In an average 10 minutes videos one gets all the action and excitement I expect in an action movie and I even get the result delivered on spot :)! To me, the vast majority of so called “tests” and “testers” on YT actually looks to me like a joke or, as someone said, a parody of testing :).

I made a list once, just for fun :D. I listed the “barbeque tester”, as the biggest group, spread literally all over the world. Typically these guys get to their laboratories (the back yard, the wood behind their house, the woodshed, etc.), in full camo outfit, after a good barbeque (Flintstones brontosaurus burger kind of stuff :)) and some good beers :) . They generally bring over a 3 to 5 kg steel Thor hammer and start to “test” the knives. :D They pound the hammer on the knives on whatever comes around, standing or downed trees, light poles, abandoned cars, concrete bricks, steel rods, etc. When they are tired of all this pounding and beating, looking around at the mess they’ve left, which resemble a small tornado aftermath, sweating and panting, they will issue their verdict: the edge is chipped, rolled, etc., the scales came off, the blade broke, the tang twisted, etc. “This knife doesn’t hold up to hard use” – they say very seriously – “it’s a piece of crap”. Really? :D

Then I have the “mad scientists” :D, among the founders of this guild was the mythical Noss. These guys typically dress up with surgeons/mechanics overalls, Hannibal Lecter masks type, foundry gloves and go to their labs (garage, cellar, basement, etc.), put the knives into a vice and start to... torture them :D. The most reckless go as far as pouring acids on the handles, on the blades, all over, they throw knives into computer screens or try to chop high voltage cables or steel pipes, reinforced concrete, etc. then they give the result and the rating (the best generally being the thickest dullest pry-bar available in town :)).

Then I have listed the “maniacs” :D. Maniacs may have different perversions. There are the rope-maniacs, who run half an hour long movie about themselves cutting these 7 or 8 km of manila ropes, paracord, or whatever type of rope, as long as it is rope. "For God’s sake, give me more dope… ehm, rope :) "! There are the paper-maniacs (in all its versions from toilet paper to cardboards :)) who slice these 2 or 3 cubic meter of paper materials. What a great afternoon :)! There are the cans-maniac, who stab to death every type of canned food they find around, leaving them bleeding on the floor :). I stop here, but I have a literature about.

It’s just for fun :D ! Everything is fine for me, everything goes :thumbup: , it’s just an hobby! Honestly, I have so much fun with these I whish they may live long and continue to amuse me on YT! But the thing I have clear is these are not tests. This is TV entertainment, vaudeville. Are these things relevant to evaluate knives design or their performances? Are these things really relevant for anyone who uses his knives as a Homo Sapiens Sapiens and not as a Ramapithecus? Who doesn’t chop a couple of bricks per day with a knife? Who doesn’t slice down some car hoods on everyday basis? Who doesn’t plunge the knife into whatever acid during a mountain hike? Who doesn’t hammer the blades on whatever comes around as a daily task? C’mon, you must be really a loser :D. What a boring life you have :D! The answer I get, generally, is that all this is to test “the limit of a knife” or to see if it can withstand “hard use”. But, many years ago already, I stopped a minute and thought. What does it mean really? For me, more than ever in a hypothetically SHTF scenario, where all my other tools (including those for care and maintenance) and commodities are gone, I would treat my knife (whichever I have the fortune to still have at hand) as a super-precious cutting tool. Even more in such a scenario, I won’t misuse and abuse it. I agree these things (I don’t call them tests) can be very funny to perform when one has some money to throw away, some good time to spend hanging around a camera and the possibility of buying a brand new toy tomorrow :). We’ve all been kids! For sure they can be entertaining to watch! Everything is fine when it’s for fun! The only problem I see is when these things are taken seriously. The spreading of these types of behaviors (and the so called “tests” connected to support them) explain very well to me why we came to the point where they have to list in users manuals to avoid drying pets in a dryer or not wash them in washing-machines :D. Testing is serious and doesn’t work well as entertainment. I always welcome good professional testing and, of course, I also indulge myself in some vaudeville but try to keep the two separated :).
 
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Lycosa said:
Years ago, Ken Warner stated that knife testing has gone too far. That was years ago and it's crazier now.
The only test my knife has to pass is cutting things. So far, not one of my knives have failed me.
rolf
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:thumbup: :thumbup:

bobnery said:
I think a good portion of folks can't find anything more to open than packages with their knives and live in a dream world where they need ultra tough of everything. Most folks could get by just fine with a slip joint. Heck non knife people make it through life just fine

Good question though
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I started with Case & Schrade slip joints. They worked fine then and they still work fine for many people who use knives but don't qualify as "knife nuts" of the forum persuasion. While I like to read what some people do to test their knives, those tests honestly don't translate into anything meaningful to me other than a few minutes' entertainment.
 
There are good tests that take knives to failure, and there are bad tests that take knives to failure. I like to learn the limits of a knife that are exposed by a good test. That is useful and entertaining information, even if only for the sake of engineering/material-science curiosity.

The biggest problem I see with the destructive tests of folders is that the strongest folders are usually the least easy to use. I don't want a knife that is likely to fail in slightly abusive, but possible situations. But I also don't want a knife that is a pain in the butt to open, close or cut things, no matter how strong.

Anyone can make a folder that can withstand any destructive force we can reasonably impose, but it's really, really difficult to make a super strong folder that is also a joy to use.
 
1] Superficial visual inspection: Is the blade centered? Does it look like it was made by a drunk?

2] Operation: Does it open and close smoothly. Does the lock fail if you give the spine a modest tap – not a clout a tap – something that might happen it your hand touched something hot or got spiked with a splinter, and you withdrew the knife with reflex inadvertently tapping the spine.

It needs to pass those first. I know apologists for whatever company don't seem to think so, there are threads on it here all the time. But if Enlan can get it right on a £15 thing there aren't any excuses. Likewise, what good is a car built from Porsche parts in the maker assembles it like a distracted clown . The confident buyer purchases with Quality Assurance. The punter buys in the hope that a lemon didn't slip through Quality Control.

3] Does it cut what you intend it to cut, or what you reasonably expect it to encounter. If that is meat try it on meat .etc.

4] Is it comfortable for what you needs are as outlined in #3. There's nearly zero point in testing how great the grip is when 'sharp finger' slicing against a cutting surface if for the bulk of the time you intend to hold it in a masturbator's s grip to pull against rope.

5] Beyond that it's all just pushing the envelope for fun and information, that may increase user confidence. For example; I've got a bit of a thing for cutting up bits of tubing, old clothing, dead magic marker pens, and old shoes. It's not necessary, but none of us are here because it is necessary.
 
Herlock said:
Hi. I think testing folders with locking systems for lock strength it’s proper, since I maintain professional testing validates design, parts/components workmanship and assembly. Like a number of similar tests performed on different products, they are a verification that a specific (mechanical in this case) feature is designed and executed according to the given specs and works for the intended use in one product. There are no “unfair” tests, in my opinion. On the contrary, the more the better! It looks to me today serious knives brands/producers test their products fairly extensively. Sure there’s always space for improvement.

One thing I see, anyway, is testing is pretty boring thing. It’s probably one the most non-entertaining thing to watch. In professional scientific testing, there’s the need to have a structured sampling method and sampling plan, preparation and conditioning of the samples and the lab environment; the set-up of testing equipment, proper procedures and work instructions, the need to repeat the testing on all the samples, etc. It’s days, weeks, sometimes months of work. And it’s all very boring to watch. One can get a failure from time to time, but generally, on test specimens, it will be just a “pop” or a very small “crack”. No big “bangs” or “booms” or “crashes” one need nowadays to get people’s attention (and YT subscriptions :) ). Then there’s also the time needed to issue a report. Not a very exciting thing either, the test report. A list of numbers, maybe graphs, charts and a picture in the best cases.

It seems to me what happened instead lately is the “tests” have become a very popular and entertaining stuff. YT is full of “tests” and “testers”. In an average 10 minutes videos one gets all the action and excitement I expect in an action movie and I even get the result delivered on spot :)! To me, the vast majority of so called “tests” and “testers” on YT actually looks to me like a joke or, as someone said, a parody of testing :).

I made a list once, just for fun :D. I listed the “barbeque tester”, as the biggest group, spread literally all over the world. Typically these guys get to their laboratories (the back yard, the wood behind their house, the woodshed, etc.), in full camo outfit, after a good barbeque (Flintstones brontosaurus burger kind of stuff :)) and some good beers :) . They generally bring over a 3 to 5 kg steel Thor hammer and start to “test” the knives. :D They pound the hammer on the knives on whatever comes around, standing or downed trees, light poles, abandoned cars, concrete bricks, steel rods, etc. When they are tired of all this pounding and beating, looking around at the mess they’ve left, which resemble a small tornado aftermath, sweating and panting, they will issue their verdict: the edge is chipped, rolled, etc., the scales came off, the blade broke, the tang twisted, etc. “This knife doesn’t hold up to hard use” – they say very seriously – “it’s a piece of crap”. Really? :D

Then I have the “mad scientists” :D, among the founders of this guild was the mythical Noss. These guys typically dress up with surgeons/mechanics overalls, Hannibal Lecter masks type, foundry gloves and go to their labs (garage, cellar, basement, etc.), put the knives into a vice and start to... torture them :D. The most reckless go as far as pouring acids on the handles, on the blades, all over, they throw knives into computer screens or try to chop high voltage cables or steel pipes, reinforced concrete, etc. then they give the result and the rating (the best generally being the thickest dullest pry-bar available in town :)).

Then I have listed the “maniacs” :D. Maniacs may have different perversions. There are the rope-maniacs, who run half an hour long movie about themselves cutting these 7 or 8 km of manila ropes, paracord, or whatever type of rope, as long as it is rope. "For God’s sake, give me more dope… ehm, rope :) "! There are the paper-maniacs (in all its versions from toilet paper to cardboards :)) who slice these 2 or 3 cubic meter of paper materials. What a great afternoon :)! There are the cans-maniac, who stab to death every type of canned food they find around, leaving them bleeding on the floor :). I stop here, but I have a literature about.

It’s just for fun :D ! Everything is fine for me, everything goes :thumbup: , it’s just an hobby! Honestly, I have so much fun with these I whish they may live long and continue to amuse me on YT! But the thing I have clear is these are not tests. This is TV entertainment, vaudeville. Are these things relevant to evaluate knives design or their performances? Are these things really relevant for anyone who uses his knives as a Homo Sapiens Sapiens and not as a Ramapithecus? Who doesn’t chop a couple of bricks per day with a knife? Who doesn’t slice down some car hoods on everyday basis? Who doesn’t plunge the knife into whatever acid during a mountain hike? Who doesn’t hammer the blades on whatever comes around as a daily task? C’mon, you must be really a loser :D. What a boring life you have :D! The answer I get, generally, is that all this is to test “the limit of a knife” or to see if it can withstand “hard use”. But, many years ago already, I stopped a minute and thought. What does it mean really? For me, more than ever in a hypothetically SHTF scenario, where all my other tools (including those for care and maintenance) and commodities are gone, I would treat my knife (whichever I have the fortune to still have at hand) as a super-precious cutting tool. Even more in such a scenario, I won’t misuse and abuse it. I agree these things (I don’t call them tests) can be very funny to perform when one has some money to throw away, some good time to spend hanging around a camera and the possibility of buying a brand new toy tomorrow :). We’ve all been kids! For sure they can be entertaining to watch! Everything is fine when it’s for fun! The only problem I see is when these things are taken seriously. The spreading of these types of behaviors (and the so called “tests” connected to support them) explain very well to me why we came to the point where they have to list in users manuals to avoid drying pets in a dryer or not wash them in washing-machines :D. Testing is serious and doesn’t work well as entertainment. I always welcome good professional testing and, of course, I also indulge myself in some vaudeville but try to keep the two separated :).
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Great post. I got a big grin from your descriptions.

In the world of custom knife makers there seem to be tests that apprentice's knives must pass for them to be accepted into the Guild. I'm only vaguely familiar with this so any advice you be welcome.
 
I agree that if this was my last tool I would treat it with kid gloves, but I also know that if I'm out hiking and I find need to be a little bit harsh on my knife, I could because I saw someone do it on yt before I bought it and if it didn't hold up I can get something else on my return from said hike
 
I agree that first and foremost, the fit and finish, blade centering, smoothness, sharp, ergonomics etc need to be reviewed. But honestly, I feel this needs to be said, testing the knives in responsible use situations to test the quality and strength of the knife is STUPID, there I said it, if a knife can't stand up to slicing cardboard, opening letters, batoning soft wood if a fixed blade. then the knife is a utter piece of junk, but even a gas station knife won't break slicing cardboard. It might eventually, but if you have time to slice a mile of cardboard to test for blade play etc, great that's an amazing test, but I don't think anyone wants to do that. Testing the lock breaking point, spine whacks, batoning with a folder etc. None of this actually shows the best knife . But it does give you an idea of durability. Is a lock that holds 400lbs any better than one that holds 100lbs? Not to me, but now I know the "losing" knife is plenty tough.
 
The locking mechanism is important, as is weight, but if given a choice between a Cold Steel Voyager and a CRKT M21-04, most people would go for the latter. But why? The most recent Voyager has a slightly better blade steel, is lighter and stronger and is less expensive. The Voyager just lacks the aesthetics of the CRKT, its handsome aluminum frame and broad spear-point blade. Holding it, it just has a greater appeal. You can't baton with it, you can't stab it into a car body, nor can you hang hundreds of pounds of weights from it, but it sure is purty! If someone was going to hand me a knife, then kick me out in a survival situation, yeah, I'd take the strongest, most effective knife at my disposal. But we're not there yet.



Which is the better knife? The Cold Steel Recon (top) is stronger, but the CRKT has an integral hilt?
You decide.

°°°
 
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Some of it is maybe marketing?... As personally I don't understand things like "Carpenters CTS® XHP Alloy w/ DLC Coating" But I do understand AUS-8. Also I noticed on the Cold Steel website, they showed them throwing the knife etc.. Yet the warranty doesn't cover any of that stuff?
 
Insipid Moniker said:
That's actually why I don't mind the zombie-knife trend. It's way easier for me to find toxic green than black when I put it down somewhere. ;)
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If we're talking trendy color schemes, the garish toxic tones are so much better than the horrible wave of blactical knives.

I do like OD green and flat dark earth colored G10, and I get the market for all black kevlar-parting sharpened pry bars, but I wish the default look of modern folders wasn't so dreary and hopeless.

I want to see more models with colorful backspacers and hardware, stripy G10 or nice wood, and even high-polished liners.

My idea of perfect EDC knives don't look like purpose-built weapons unless you're just frightened of metal in general.

The blactical trend created a bunch of knives that look intimidating on purpose, no good for using near skittish coworkers.
 
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