Fair use?

Re: khuk as wedge...

Thanks for your comments Tom. I agree that splitting tough wood in this fashion (as opposed to "precision splitting" to make cedar shakes for example) can cross the line to outright abuse. I was quite surprised by the intense handle vibration that can be produced if care is not exercised. I think I would say that if one holds the handle as tightly as one would when chopping while striking the spine with tha baton and feels shock/vibrations more powerful than those produced by proper chopping, the line has been probably been crossed. A couple light taps should help determine where to strike the spine to minimize vibrations/shock.

However, I don't know if that is enough to stay in the "safe zone" for a rat-tail tang. I feel would for a chiruwa tang, and I should probably get a 18-20" chiruwa AK to use when I expect a khuk to be a wedge. Sticking a partially split chunk of wood on the blade and slamming it down to split it is probably also best done with a chiruwa model. I wonder at what point the kamis would say: "What's wrong with you? Use an axe or a maul and wedge!"
 
as a prospective buyer of my first bent blade, is the toughness of these knives inherent in the design or the manufacture? Is it just a trait of khukris to be this hard-ass, or is it the HI models, specifically?
 
Punker, the answer to your question is "BOTH"! The knife has evolved down through several centuries as a weapon and agricultural tool, branching into several different patterns becase of various needs in different areas of the terrain in Nepal.
The HI effort has been to bring together the best available kamis, to manufacture most of the traditional patterns, to the highest quality possible. The result has been that some, like Tom Holt, have used a knife considered to be a weapon and "grassy plains and vines" cutter, to do work that you would think would be reserved for a heavy "woodlands and jungle" chopper. Just by design and the nature of the blade, they all overlap into jobs the might be less suited for than another type, and the quality produced at BirGorkha just extends this ability.
 
I don't know if that is enough to stay in the "safe zone" for a rat-tail tang.
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Himilayan Import knives do not have "rat-tailed" tangs. A rat-tail tang is a narrow rod extending from the blade, and usually takes the form of a threaded rod welded to a partial hidden tang. Such a khukuri would not last very long. The HI tang runs all the way through to the pommel and is peaned over, and it is a heavy wedge shaped piece of metal. We also shouldn't discount the handle material as it provides some strength and helps to dampen shock and vibration. These knives are very strong, but, their large size and heavy blades, are capable of creating enormous force and should be used with care.

n2s

Here are some typical HI hidden tangs
 

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Correct as usual, n2s. That's why I call them "hidden tapered tangs." Rat tail they're not.

Wal, also as usual, has pegged it pretty well, too.

Nice having good help.
 
I stand firmly corrected on the "rat-tail" terminology--
That was the closest term I knew that seemed to fit.

I knew that the tangs are pretty beefy and not welded. I was not aware that rat-tail tangs were often partial tangs extended by welding.

How about "kangaroo-tail" or "crocodile-tail" :)

Do others think that the handle vibration criteria I suggest is a reasonable one should one choose to use a HI tapered hidden tang knife as a wedge?
 
Handle vibration is a product of not striking with the Center of Percussion (COP). Therefore, if a Kami tests the blade by striking the COP (which he will, because he know this is the "sweet spot"), he will not notice any problems. Then the blade gets shipped to someone who may not know where the COP is on the blade. They repeatedly use the khuk, say, without hitting with the COP, and note vibrations in the handle, vibrations that could shake a blade from its fittings.

You can, through experimentation, find the sweet spot for any object that you swing at the target. The COP is exactly opposite from the Point of Balance, or POB. Thus, if the POB is 4 inches from the butt of the khuk, then the COP is about 4 inches from the point of the khuk.

With your spine striking technique, go along the back of the spine, striking all along it. when you find the spot where the vibrations are the least noticeable, you have found the COP.

Sir Richard Burton's Book of the Sword discusses these and other principles associated with blade physics.

--Keith

--Keith
 
I belive the warrenty is there to help keep the tools Bill and HI offer in tip-top shape.

And sometimes, help fix little screw-ups on owner's part.

I don't think it's there for those who like to abuse things just for amusment.
 
F.W.

I suspect that the best place to strike the spine will be the C.O.P. ONLY if the blade edge is stuck in the wood at the C.O.P.

If the blade slides forwards or backwards, during the splitting, then a new, "unatural" vibration node is imposed upon the blade.

If this occurs, the best place to strike the spine will change. It may however be impossible to reduce vibrations to the same degree as if everything is lined up on the C.O.P.

At some point, it will be best to remove the blade and line things up again. The question is when, and does grasping the handle and comparing the vibrations to chopping vibrations (at or near the sweet spot) provide a reasonable safety margin? Or are the vibrations produced when striking a clamped blade so different that the comparison is useless?
 
Firkin:

I see your point, and agree with the sliding COP theory.
I think it is a case of hitting too many objects in the system that would make the COP hard to target. you've got:
1. Target wood
2. Khuk
3. Object hitting the khuk.

So far we've been talking about the COP of the khuk, but we could really abstract by talking about the COP of the object hitting the khuk. We haven't even considered the vibrations transferred from object #3 to object #2 (the khuk), or whether or not the vibrations felt in the khuk handle are coming from the khuk or transferred to the khuk from #3.

I'd liken it to pool, when you shoot the cue ball at two other balls in a line. Say the COP is represented by a straight shot. anything else than a straight shot is an improper hit, and will genrate vibration.

So you shoot the cue ball. You have a pretty good chance of getting it to go straight. Then, the cue ball hits another ball. If it hits just right, it might go straight, if you're good. Add another ball in the line, and your chances continue to decrease...exponentially.

The more you add to the system, the less controllable the result may be.

--Keith

P.S. Hope i didn't sidetrack too badly here.
 
F.W.

Well, you saw my point, and upped the ante!

Vibration transmission to and from the baton, and whether it's COP is used really complicates things...

I was just pointing out that the COP of the khuk plus firmly stuck opject is not necessarily the same as that of the khuk alone.

As recall the point-mass "Three-Body Problem" can't be solved exactly, and the 3 object system you allude to is certainly much more complicated. Another consideration is whether the initial shock or sustained vibration does the damage. How much energy does the khuk transmit from baton to wood, and how much does it absorb as potentially destructive vibrations or other forms?

You can see why I'm tempted to just carefully monitor the magnitude of shock/vibration in the handle!!
 
Yes, I do.

BTW, what prompted you to use the baton + khuk combo to split wood? more control than a wedge? Delicate or precise work called for?

Keith
 
BTW, what prompted you to use the baton + khuk combo to split wood?
Click to expand...

combination of several things.

a) no wedge and maul

b) tough wood...3 lb khuk won't split 3" diam, 14" length in a single blow, seemed better than flailing khuk with wood stuck on it, especially with heavier, larger diameters.

c) easier to follow established cracks

d) worked better than carving wooden wedges and pounding them in with a hatchet.

e) a perhaps over-enthusiatic response to give a repaired ( soft edge excellently heat-treated by Art) khuk a hard testing.

f) brute ignorance
 
I use my khuk as a wedge because it's a long way back up the hill to the truck to fetch the wedges...

In my experience, FWIW, if you drive the 'sweet spot' into the wood and then bash on the spine opposite the sweet spot, the khuk doesn't seem to mind terribly much.

I still reckon such treatment is above & beyond the call
 
if you drive the 'sweet spot' into the wood and then bash on the spine opposite the sweet spot, the khuk doesn't seem to mind terribly much.
Tom Holt

If a Khukuri could only talk...


munk
 
Originally posted by Howard Wallace
I respectfully disagree.

The kamis have shown that they can make knives that are very tough and can be relied upon. It is not doing them a favor to relax our expectations. They have the skill to be great, even if some poor knives have made it through the pipeline. We may buy some of the knives out of pity, but there is a far larger market for truly great knives at an exceptional price, backed by an honorable guarantee.

I think HI should keep its guarantee, and that HI customers should not hesitate to use it.

I also think the blades should get a QC test and inspection before polishing at BirGorkha. A few hard whacks at that point will tell if the knife will break or if it is up to HI standards.
Click to expand...

I agree with Howard and the others who have respectfully disagreed.
From what I understand the village knives must hold up under all sorts of abuse or the customer will take it back to the kami and demand satsifaction because he paid for a knife that wouldn't break.
I'm doing the same thing whenever I've bought a khukuri.
If a khukuri won't take all you can throw at it and survive it isn't much good, but that's not saying anyone can treat a Kobra like an AK of any size either.
There may be a time for the younger guys when they have to depend completely on their khukuri to get them out of a tight spot. If they haven't tested the knife beyond it's limits then they won't know for sure if they can depend on it to save their lives.

Back to Lurking Mode I remain,
Yvsa.
 
I planted 15 willow tree saplings yesterday using nothing but my Chiruwa AK. Hardly a stress test, but very efficient! Only took about two minutes apiece in wet, boggy ground.

Drew some interesting looks from the nearby campers. :)
 
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