Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife

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Ken Cox

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I have asked this question before and I still hope for a useful answer:

Does anyone today make a Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife that meets the intent of the original designers in terms of materials, heat-treatment and quality?
I have the impression of most, if not all, of the current offerings as non-functional collector's items and art objects.
Does anyone make a functional FS knife with properly heat-treated steel, a real edge, proper balance and texture, and good-enough quality?

The last time I asked this I got a response regarding a New Zealand knife maker who offered a beautiful and accurately reproduced FS for about $250, which seems very fair to me but outside my budget.
I really want something mass-produced so that it gets down to what I can afford.

One author I read referred to a run of 1000 knives made in America in the later '40's or early'50's, and they sounded like exactly what I want, but I wouldn't know how to authenticate or identify one.

So, does anyone have some experience with current production, reasonably-priced FS Fighting Knives?
 
For practical purposes I'm not sure you would really want a commando dagger. I've read the story of how they were invented and I think the basic premise was flawed. One thought they had was that slashing someones rib bones would put them into shock. They really didn't have a clear idea of how to do a disabling cut. They mostly hoped for precision thrusts.

Be that as it may, they still make commando daggers for the brittish. For a good selection and price go to Brigade Quartermaster:

www.actiongear.com

And use the search function. Search for the word "commando" and one of the things you'll find is about a $40.00 plain black commando dagger. Given the slim proportions of these knives you want them made out of a basic non-stainless like 1075 carbon steel or L6. Don't get a stainless alloy for this design. Your "commando" search will also come up with some improved Applegate designs.
 
Ken

Check out http://www.esa-swords.com/ - I'm sure you have seen their ads in Blade. Knives manufactured by Wilkinson Sword. Appear to be of good quality; but I don't know if they meet your specifications.

I am a gun show knife dealer, and just obtained (2) of the Fairnbirn-Sykes similar to those mentioned in the above post & carried by Brigade Quartermasters. These are repos of the Pattern 3 Fairbairn-Sykes, and definitely don't meet your specs.

Hope this helps.

John
SharpShin' Blades
 
Thanks, Jeff.
I've already traveled that road.
And yes, I definitely want an accurate, functional Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife.

I have my serious doubts about the FS knife offerings of BQ.
However, if someone has purchased one of these and likes what he got, I would like to hear about it.

An FS in L6?
Don't tease me.
I would count myself blessed if I could find an FS in one of the sophisticated steels like L6 or O1.
I doubt if I can do better, or even as well as 1095.
I suspect most manufacturers of FS knives now choose a steel for ease of manufacture and economy, and not for applicability to the intent of the knife.

I know this knife has some bad press, mostly for the series made in America for the Marine Corps in the early 1940's.
These knives had an inappropriate heat treatment for the intended purpose and they proved quite brittle and prone to breakage.
However, many of WWII British-made series' served quite well in their intended role as a fighting stilleto/dagger.

I have some great links on another computer which lead to fascinating stories about the very early design history of the FS while still in development in Singapore, and the original knife commissioned by two US Marine officers, made to Fairbairn's design, and presented to him as a parting gift.

Anyway, help, please.
 
I remember I looked into this way back when. I ended up getting a cheapie repro and sold it. The blade geometry was horrible and the knife seemed delicate and weak. I saw another repro and it was nicer with a rounded pommell instead of a flat one. The leather sheaths always sucked. I think the knife was not very versatile and useable since it had a tendency to turn in the hand when used. Thus, the Applegate / Fairbarn was born. I have seen variations on the commando knife theme from Boker, Cold Steel, and Gerber. I eventually gave up on getting one because the designs that followed weren't really tested in the field much, if at all. I couldn't find any anecdotes to indicate this anyways. Daggers like that had a tendency to be thin and easily bent if not brittle to the point of snapping the blade. Now if you want an accurate commando knife which has a solid rep, seen action, and has been tested in the field countless times then I would hint at these...

www.ekknife.com

I got the reference from a good friend and bottom line, if I was to go with any true tactical knives, the Ek's would be it. I would say that it would be very difficult to dissuade me from getting anything else tactical from now on, especially since I have experienced them for myself. If you ask anybody about the Ek's, you either get a puzzled look or they would simply smile and walk away. That, unto itself, speaks volumes. Good luck in your search.
 
I think the Ek Knife company has changed hands several times.
I recently (a year ago) purchased an Ek knife from BQ for $39.
The price should have told me something.
I would describe the workmanship as sloppy and disinterested, but surprisingly, the design overcame the poor workmanship.
It makes a great sunvisor knife and I feel well armed with it in place while traveling, so no real complaints.
The pictures on the website to which schmoopiebear's link leads look much more like what I have associated with Ek Knives in the past.

Yes, the FS Fighting Knife has a very narrow application, and one can justifiably criticize it for that, and yet I would feel very well armed with one, given the manner in which I understand its intended use.
I strongly believe in the point, and I do not see how one can get much more of an acute point than that presented by the FS Fighting Knife, and still have any kind of edge at all.
And yes, this makes for a potentially fragile point, which in turn makes the heat treatment and steel ever more important.
I understand from my readings that a properly heat-treated FS, made out of the correct type of steel, did not suffer the breakages one hears reported by the early 1940's Marines.

Thanks to theoldawg.
We cross-posted.

And thanks to schmoopiebear.
Even though he does not hold the FS in high esteem, every bit of information helps.
 
As a former collector of some newer variants of the F/S knife style; NATO, contract, Al Mar, etc...I'd suggest that you just buy the 'box stock' original full fixed blade A/F design as made today by Boker...

We're collectors of A/F's these days, having most of the variant's ever made, and short of Bill Harsey's exquisite 'Handmade's', the Boker's simply can't be beat. Besides, they're cheap too...<$75 if you do your homework...

YMMV ;)

Mel
 
Ken,

I don't know if this helps, but Wilkinson Sword was the original manufacturer. An e-mail to WS with questions about their heat treat and steel used might prove very useful.
 
Originally posted by Ken Cox
I think the Ek Knife company has changed hands several times.
I recently (a year ago) purchased an Ek knife from BQ for $39.
The price should have told me something.
I would describe the workmanship as sloppy and disinterested, but surprisingly, the design overcame the poor workmanship.
It makes a great sunvisor knife and I feel well armed with it in place while traveling, so no real complaints.
The pictures on the website to which schmoopiebear's link leads look much more like what I have associated with Ek Knives in the past.

Yes, the FS Fighting Knife has a very narrow application, and one can justifiably criticize it for that, and yet I would feel very well armed with one, given the manner in which I understand its intended use.
I strongly believe in the point, and I do not see how one can get much more of an acute point than that presented by the FS Fighting Knife, and still have any kind of edge at all.
And yes, this makes for a potentially fragile point, which in turn makes the heat treatment and steel ever more important.
I understand from my readings that a properly heat-treated FS, made out of the correct type of steel, did not suffer the breakages one hears reported by the early 1940's Marines.

Thanks to theoldawg.
We cross-posted.

And thanks to schmoopiebear.
Even though he does not hold the FS in high esteem, every bit of information helps.
Click to expand...

Hi Ken. I have no doubt the earlier FS that were made for combat were better than the later repros or display versions. I just have no way to verify that for myself in any way. All I have seen and handled were the repros and display versions. The later FS may have been inferior copies of the earlier ones. The people who made the repros may have got it wrong. If they were an indicator of anything, the fundamental design inherently does not facilitate a strong blade, IMHO. If the repros or display versions are any indicators, unless the manufacturing of the blade and the use of the right steel is flawlessly executed as originally intended, the knife design could be improved upon. Hence, the evolution to the AF. That is not to say that people haven't attempted to make a better dagger in exclusion to the FS, by other companies. I have been told by many people on various forums that the spear / leaf type nature of the blade requires a very robust cross section. Also, there is that nasty tendency of the handle to roll or twist in the hand when used. There have been attempts at refining the design and some of them could quite possibly be successful. I would have say that even at the advent of the World War 2, Ek knives and their success were due to them being closer to a bayonet design than dagger. As they evolved to a dagger, they gradually refined the design to retain the inherent strengths of the original blade design, if this example is an indicator of anything...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2173985565&category=20271

Even though it was possibly a Blackjack knife with the EK name, interesting that it looks like a bulkier version of what the AF finally became. The only difference is that the AF, from what I know to this point, has not been really tested in the various theaters of conflict around the world. At least, not extensively. This includes the various incarnations of them up to Gerber and Boker making their versions. The latest Eks have been and continue to be deployed extensively in various campaigns since World War 2. From what I understand, there was a controversial history to when the Ek's were made by Blackjack and then the name was bought, retained, and used by somebody else. I speculate that when you got an Ek, it wasn't the ones that are now made by the standard bearers in Richmond, VA. I suspect it is either a Blackjack knife or the company which originated from it thereafter. I believe it is Bark River Knives now using the Ek name to label some of their knives in their line. The present Ek Knife Company are all former employees of John Ek and not from Blackjack.

I would have liked to have gotten my hands on an actual original FS or AF to see what they actually were designed to feel like. Since I have gotten my hands on an Ek, I have abandoned that route of pursuing any other tactical type dagger. That is how much of an impression the latest Ek that I have handled has made in impressing it's reputation onto me. Considering the reputation of the Richmond, VA Ek knives and the tradition it was originally based on, I think you would be impressed. Even in comparison to daggers by Boker, Cold Steel, and Gerber you would find the "real" Ek knives optimized to be true fighting daggers in design. There is no doubt about it once you hold one in your hand. I would even be interested in reading the book about the colorful history from the inception of the knife's design to the many myriad models in application. The anecdotal info of how it performed during use would be invaluable. I would have liked to have seen a FS or AF work although history and availability of the actual knives to use are scant. There is no way to compare repros to what the original designs were actually like and how they shoould perform.

Look forward to your feedback.
 
Keep in mine it's restricted by most states for carry as it's double edged. Use it for your defensive knife on the streets and you may have some serious issues with the courts.

These were never designed for slashing but for stabbing someone.
Sure they'll slash as well but they are not the best at it nor were they designed for such. The design isn't conducive to effective slashing.

Those who have tested the effects with these types were not impressed with it's slashing ability compared to most other designs.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
Keep in mine it's restricted by most states for carry as it's double edged. Use it for your defensive knife on the streets and you may have some serious issues with the courts.

These were never designed for slashing but for stabbing someone.
Sure they'll slash as well but they are not the best at it nor were they designed for such. The design isn't conducive to effective slashing.

Those who have tested the effects with these types were not impressed with it's slashing ability compared to most other designs.

Brownie
Click to expand...

... that is why I never carry anything with a double edge. Too many legal issues. Of course, a knife that has a false edge while retaining a dagger / spear / stilleto profile should be no problem. I forgot to mention to Ken that the Cold Steel Zytel Ti Lite is a very economical "tool". The Design is equally good at slashing and stabbing. So is the Benchmade Spear Point balisong. No double edge and plenty strong to get the job done. Of course, in some jurisdictions, balisongs are in a legal quagmire to being outright banned for EDC. Bummer.
 
Whew!

A lot of good information.

The Rob Brown knife...wow.
Yes, a high price but it look worth every penny.
It would have to stay in a display case, though.

I wish I could find the link to the New Zealander who hand makes this knife with original materials for about $250, just so we could compare them.

In line with schmoopiebear's comments, the Ek site describes the Ek M4 as the "ultimate military fighting knife."

http://www.ekknife.com/ek4.html

This design has a lot of merit and, as a military knife, it appears to have resolved the issue of a fragile point.
I like the lanyard.
Normally I don't care for lanyards on knives but this one looks very useful and appropriate.

This brings me back to the point, though, and I do mean the literal, physical point of the FS knife in particular and all knives of this type in general.

I think Fairbairn and Sykes intended for their knife to have as much point as it does.
With this much point the strength becomes more of an issue, and the steel and heat-treatment become ever more critical.

Yes, the FS will never have the tip strength of the Ek, and neither will the Ek have the penetrating power of the FS.
I don't see any reason to fault either knife.
Rather, each design has its advantages. If the American Marine Raiders who carried and broke the American made FS knives had instead had the Ek knife, the overly hard heat-treatment for edge retention would not have presented the problem that it did.
It remains, though, that the Royal Marine Commandos who carried the Wilkinson version of the FS did not experience any broken points.
In the final analysis, if I had to go tactical as a young Marine, I would pick the Ek for its extra robustness; however, if I later found myself sitting in a dark fighting hole, straining my ears for any sound of movement ahead of me, I might pick the FS. :)

Which brings us to the Case V-42 and the thumb print on the flat of the blade.
The Case V-42, which superficially resembles the FS, has a machined, textured ovaldepression ground into the flat of the blade, ahead of the guard.
I understand from my reading, but not from any pictures I have seen, that the early FS knives had an unsharpened area in front of the guard, similar to the thumb-print area on the Case V-42, where the user might have put his thumb.
I have not seen a picture of an FS blade so ground and if anyone knows of one would they please direct me to it.
I believe with this flat, that Fairbairn and Sykes might have intended the user to hold the knife in what I call the paintbrush grip.

I continue to look for a link I have to the early history of Fairbairn and Sykes while still in Singapore, which includes accounts of the various production runs of FS knives and their respective materials, design differences, strengths and weaknesses.
 
Bingo!

I found the URL.

http://www.supervirtual.com.br/acervo/knife.htm

The link above leads to an article by William L. Cassidy entitled "A Brief History of the Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife".

This article has everything anyone could ever possibly want to know about Fairbairn and Sykes, their knife, and the very tough world that existed for professional fighting men in Southeast Asia in the late 1930's.
I recommend this as the best knife-read of the year.
Absolutely fascinating.
 
I have one of the 1942 vintage beads and ridges
model FS knives which is considered one of the best designs. I don't think it is all that much better than the basic $40 modern FS dagger. The design really is too light. The round handle cross section is also a bad idea.

By the way, you don't want one made of O1 or even 1095. For strength reasons you want 1060, 1075, 1084 or some other really tough carbon steel. The more alloying elements you put into it, the more you are likely to break the tip.
 
Originally posted by Ken Cox
I believe with this flat, that Fairbairn and Sykes might have intended the user to hold the knife in what I call the paintbrush grip.

I continue to look for a link I have to the early history of Fairbairn and Sykes while still in Singapore, which includes accounts of the various production runs of FS knives and their respective materials, design differences, strengths and weaknesses.
Click to expand...

... on a very interesting and provocative thread. Thank you, Ken.

I edited some of your post to address something here.

OK. The paintbrush thing was something I considered when I was looking and playing with the FS as a tactical. If that is so, I would have designed it with an almost round handguard or one more oval in uniformity. I think the hand guard was probably incidental in it's design to be just enough to prevent hand slippage. Mind you, the ribbed handle was supposed to prevent that when plunging the knife into bad guys, too. The guard may have been not been designed completely round so it would not roll away if dropped. Or perhaps, the guard was designed small and innocuous to be worn or slipped into a waistband or like. That would be catch it in order to retain it's position for deployment. This is interesting because John Ek showed that his design for his commando knife without a hand guard was quite safe with a greased hand, thus no hand guard in the earlier models. I think the hand guard is an afterthought for all of the above and when the knife clashes with another weapon. This is so that the hand is somewhat protected. I am sepculating here because I have no idea the intent designed around the knife and have never had to use it in such a way. I guess use of the knife was dependent on how sophisticated the user was... or not.
 
Originally posted by Ken Cox
Bingo!

I found the URL.

http://www.supervirtual.com.br/acervo/knife.htm

The link above leads to an article by William L. Cassidy entitled "A Brief History of the Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife".

This article has everything anyone could ever possibly want to know about Fairbairn and Sykes, their knife, and the very tough world that existed for professional fighting men in Southeast Asia in the late 1930's.
I recommend this as the best knife-read of the year.
Absolutely fascinating.
Click to expand...

I was always curious about it's history. This could serve to be quite informative. Thank you so much for sourcing this!
 
I realized why Wilkinson was appropriate for making the original FS. They had their tradition in making swords. So the paint brush and other techniques were originally from sword centric training.

Now, from the basic fencing that I have learned, I can understand how the knife would be used. If it was with the mentality more for Western style combative methods, then it would be perfect to use the knife in such a way. *LOL*

*lightbulb comes on* I will experiement with this with the Ek. I would be curious to see what James Keating of Comtech, the people of Alliance Martial Arts, and HACA / John Clements would think if they were to examine a FS for combatives.

The design makes so much sense now. The knife totally facilitated techniques in fencing or Western knife combat. I can imagine techniques like the flechette would work quite well. Even a balestra would enhance the technique with such a knife. The FS wasn't meant to be a chopper or a prybar. It was meant to be a light and quick flicking weapon for suden piercing, stabbing, or slashing. The handle is totally reminiscent of a foil handle and the blade would move pretty quickly like the end of a foil. The dynamics and mechanics would be exactly the same. Cool!
 
The dynamics of a light dagger and a light sword are quite different. A "small sword" or light rapier is heavy enough to have significant momentum when projected at thrusting speed. A lot of its penetration comes from momentum you put into the sword before you reach the target. That momentum combined with the flexibility of the blade reduces the shock to your hand when you hit your target. A practice foil is lighter and therefor momentum is less a factor, but it is more flexible so impact is also reduced. When used for short range stabbing it was common to "shorten" your small sword by gripping the blade with your left hand to do a two-handed thrust. The handle needs of a sword and a dagger are somewhat different.

That said you will find that fencing handles are usually not round in cross section. They are oval or somewhat squared to help fit your hand. I personally really like the security of the pistol-grip handle varients for foils and epees, particularly the Belgian grip. If you want a special purpose duelling knife grip I would look at a belgian grip. See some pics:

http://www.amfence.com/html/grip_pics.html
 
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