Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife

Originally posted by Jeff Clark
The dynamics of a light dagger and a light sword are quite different. A "small sword" or light rapier is heavy enough to have significant momentum when projected at thrusting speed. A lot of its penetration comes from momentum you put into the sword before you reach the target. That momentum combined with the flexibility of the blade reduces the shock to your hand when you hit your target. A practice foil is lighter and therefor momentum is less a factor, but it is more flexible so impact is also reduced. When used for short range stabbing it was common to "shorten" your small sword by gripping the blade with your left hand to do a two-handed thrust. The handle needs of a sword and a dagger are somewhat different.

That said you will find that fencing handles are usually not round in cross section. They are oval or somewhat squared to help fit your hand. I personally really like the security of the pistol-grip handle varients for foils and epees, particularly the Belgian grip. If you want a special purpose duelling knife grip I would look at a belgian grip. See some pics:

http://www.amfence.com/html/grip_pics.html


me: Will have to dig up my links to Comtech, HACA, and John Clements to study this. From what I remember of owning the FS repro, it felt like I would use it more like western style fencing than asian style knife manipulations. The only thing missing was the length of the blade although it felt ghost like because of the weight dynamics of the knife. This is to the best of my re-collection. The concept is intriguing, nonetheless, to dabble with. Thanks for the heads up.
 
Hey Ken,

The fellow in New Zealand you are looking for is Peter Parkinson:
http://homepages.maxnet.co.nz/peterp/nzknives/

Peter doesn't make the knives - he commissioned the project and Brent Sandow (knifemaker from South Africa, now living in NZ) makes them. Peter collects FS daggers and was always wanting to get one made "to spec"... the main difference is that the blade steel in this case is either 440C or Sandvic 12C7. (The custom knife community is pretty small here!)

I have handled them and compared to the "Sheffield" model that I used to have - they are much heavier (due to the blade thickness) and the overall quality is better. The sheaths are made by another local guy who happens to be a saddle maker. Pretty good quality repro of the original spec sheath. Peter is apparently happy with them which probably says a lot. And yes, the grinds are straight!

Still, the FS design is more of a stabber than slasher... and personally, I'm going to order the Boke AF as soon as I get my import permit... (illegal to import double edges here, but you can quite happily make them!!)

Cheers,
 
Originally posted by Daniel L
Hey Ken,

The fellow in New Zealand you are looking for is Peter Parkinson:
http://homepages.maxnet.co.nz/peterp/nzknives/

Peter doesn't make the knives - he commissioned the project and Brent Sandow (knifemaker from South Africa, now living in NZ) makes them. Peter collects FS daggers and was always wanting to get one made "to spec"... the main difference is that the blade steel in this case is either 440C or Sandvic 12C7. (The custom knife community is pretty small here!)

I have handled them and compared to the "Sheffield" model that I used to have - they are much heavier (due to the blade thickness) and the overall quality is better. The sheaths are made by another local guy who happens to be a saddle maker. Pretty good quality repro of the original spec sheath. Peter is apparently happy with them which probably says a lot. And yes, the grinds are straight!

Still, the FS design is more of a stabber than slasher... and personally, I'm going to order the Boke AF as soon as I get my import permit... (illegal to import double edges here, but you can quite happily make them!!)

Cheers,

me: Wow! Excellent. And for a custom knife, it is quite reasonable even after the currency conversion. I would prefer custom and well made versus authentic anyday. At least one knows they are made with newer metallurgical technology. That would mean upping the stakes in durability and strength department. Of course, cheaper daggers can be had with more modern materials. In the case of these customs, they are so nice as to be more personalized. If I didn't have a predilection for the Eks, I would say these would be exactly what I would be looking for when I was a younger collector and user.

As for the Boker AF, you are right that they are a sound design based on how other knives have been made simililarly. Like the Eks, the AF has gone through many refinements with many companies doing an incarnation of it. The commando dagger has been done so many times I havelost count. Benchmade, Boker, Camillus, Cold Steel, Gerber, SOG, etc... have all done their versions in fixed and folders. Still, the ones that rank in my head as being the most pleasing to my eye has always been the Fairbarn / Sykes, Applegate / Fairbarn, and now Ek.

If anybody has examples I have missed, I would look forward to them chiming in.
 
I regret that I didn't buy Case's Commando Dagger, Modle V??...was it 41?
 
Case V-42.

I can't find a picture of a Case V-42 anywhere.
Of interest, as I think I mentioned earlier, the Case V-42 has a thumb depression machined in where the early F-S had a "tablet."

It seems to me I visited Peter Parkinson's site only two days ago and he had picture of a Pattern 1 F-S with the S curved guard and a tablet.
The tablet clearly corresponded to the thumb depression on the Case V-42.
I wonder what happened to the picture, or if I've gotten his site mixed up with someone else's.
Anyway, now I can't find a picture of a Pattern 1 F-S anywhere.
Drat!

Some interesting comments from Jeff Clark regarding grips.
I have designed a grip for a heavy-dagger/short-sword which Gene Osborn has made for me.
Gene's version measures 13.5" over all.
I have also made an 18" version of my own.
Yes, the grip certainly changes how the blade behaves.

I visited the grip site Jeff posted.
I don't know enough about fencing to even begin too understand the principles behind the subject grip designs.
However, I cannot imagine a modern soldier carrying a dagger with these types of grips, simply because of the awkwardness of wearing them on a belt day in and day out.
Also, I wonder about the grip on a Main Gauche.

The following link leads to a picture of a wooden practice Main Gauche.

http://www.woodenweapons.com/main_gaucheng.htm
 
Much of the bad press received by the FS dagger is due to the fact that it was a specific fighting knife, meant for stabbing, but was used also as an utility with all that uses we very well know would break a knife point (such as prying things open).
 
I recently aquired one of the Desert Storm pattern Boker A/F blades in 440C. I have to say as my first double edged dagger of quality I am highly impressed with this knife.

I was going to buy a Rodgers Fairbain, but the design does not have a real edge to it. The Applegate model is IMHO a genuine improvement over the basic Commando pattern knife. Here's why...

I trained with my MA teacher using wooden mock ups of the Boker model and my teacher considered the over all design to have the qualities he was looking for in a figting knife.

1. Genuine cutting edge, which in my Boker is shaving sharp out of box.
2. Adjustable weighting as you can make it blade or handle heavy.
3. Double edged
4. Very stout and strong tip, which is also very sharp.
5. Easy to conceal
6. Has a guard
7. Is made from a quality steel.

These features made him convinced this was one of the very best designs he had handled. He also liked the Ka Bar pattern knife and Cold Steel Trail Master. For the record his is a 6th Dan in Karate.
 
I heard that many people who own a Böker A/F complain about its awkward blade geometry - the edge just seems to be too thick. I know it's not an utility knife, but still: the importance of proper blade geometry can hardly be underestimated.
 
No probs here. Its razor sharp at the edge and I mean hair popping sharp out of box.

It is a stout blade shape and very strong, but glides through stuff.
 
Originally posted by The General
I recently aquired one of the Desert Storm pattern Boker A/F blades in 440C. I have to say as my first double edged dagger of quality I am highly impressed with this knife.

I was going to buy a Rodgers Fairbain, but the design does not have a real edge to it. The Applegate model is IMHO a genuine improvement over the basic Commando pattern knife. Here's why...

I trained with my MA teacher using wooden mock ups of the Boker model and my teacher considered the over all design to have the qualities he was looking for in a figting knife.

1. Genuine cutting edge, which in my Boker is shaving sharp out of box.
2. Adjustable weighting as you can make it blade or handle heavy.
3. Double edged
4. Very stout and strong tip, which is also very sharp.
5. Easy to conceal
6. Has a guard
7. Is made from a quality steel.

These features made him convinced this was one of the very best designs he had handled. He also liked the Ka Bar pattern knife and Cold Steel Trail Master. For the record his is a 6th Dan in Karate.

me: ... about the Cold Steel Peacekeepers? How about the Tai Pan or the Triple Action? The tantos? How do they compare to the Boker A/F as the criteria you stated for picking the knives would apply for many?

Any high quality knife that is not hair popping sharp out of the box can be sharpened to be as such. As well, another true "commando" knife is the M1 series of the Eks from the Richmond, Virgina plant. A fellow forumite recommended them to me and he did me a BIG favour by doing so. I now believe the Eks to be one of the superior knives out there that has proven itself extensively in military engagements. The only other that has such an extensive and colorful history, that I can think of at this moment, is the Gurkha Kukhri.

I am pondering why your sensei did not assess or consider the Kempo Fighter made by Gil Hibben. From what I read, it is supposed to be a very good knife perfect for the kempo karate practitioner. Also, the Cold Steel R1, which mimics a Randall, would be appropriate, too.

Was there any materials or test cutting done for the assessment of the A/F knife that your instructor preferred? What techniques were done to assess the knife's practical application?

I am curious to know since I have had experience with both FMA, tanto-jutsu techniques, and techniques from other systems. I am intrigued what criteria the teacher went by to assess the knife and how he came to the conclusion it was right for him? I have never seen any karate techniques for offensive knife combatives per se. Anything that would shed light on this subject would be informative for all the edged combative practitioners who reside here. Thank you and look forward to your feedback.
 
Well my Ma teacher at the time also was a Black belt in several other MA schools. Thus he was imparting the knoledge learnt from practice, experience and attending many many seminars in the UK and USA.

I gained the knoledge from asking him from a student basis, and informally after the class as a fellow knife collector. I have imparted about as much knoledge that I can express on the screen i'm afraid. I left the school a little while ago after moving address. I could not manage with a full time job the requirements of attending at least two sessions per week without fail with the change of address. At some point I hope he will offer classes at or near my town...:(

It was very intersting though and any quality sharp knife in the hands of a practitioner must be a fearsom package. I know I could not even touch him with my Katana even if I tried! If he had his Katana he would be a killing machine. The joke was you could only stop master lynne with a 12 guage and a lot of luck...
:p

I would have said a .5 cal Browning M82 myself
 
Yes, the F-S has a point optimized for fighting and not for utility.
Nonetheless, the Wilkinson made F-S knives of the WWII era did NOT have a reputation for breaking.
The reputation for breaking came from a batch of US-made F-S knives issued to the Marine Raiders and Marine Parachute Battalion at the very beginning of WWII.
These knives had an inappropriate heat treatment and this caused them to break when used as a field knife.

I see no fault in a fighting knife having a thick blade geometry, and especially so in a double-edged knife, which has a smaller cross-sectional area than a single-edged knife.
Think of a single-edged knife as a half-sharpened double-edged knife.
In order to complete the sharpening of the single-edged knife and thereby make it a double-edged knife, one has to remove steel, or cross-sectional area, from the spine.

F-S starts out with a 3/16ths thickness and carries a diamond cross-section as much as possible to the tip.
This will allow a hair-shaving, damage resistant edge for combat, but it won't slice food in the kitchen.

The Boker, in order to maintain as much cross-sectional area as close to the point as possible, delays the point with a fat ogive curve.
This makes the Boker more versatile, by virtue of its thinner blade geometry, but it does so by sacrificing the acuteness of its point.

The Ek uses a deep hollow grind in order to maintain a thick central spine almost all the way to the point.
The Ek also has an ogive point, but it balances whatever it gives up in point by having a leaf shape with a waist.
This waist multiplies the effectiveness of the Ek in the draw cut and the slash.

If one could add up the pluses and minuses of the Ek and the 1st Pattern F-S Fighting knife, I think they would come out fairly equal.
For me, the Boker gives up too much point in order to obtain versatility.
Someone elses might score this versatility in the Boker's favor.

I read an article written by Jeff Cooper, whom we normally associate with the 1911 handgun, and a compelling argument for the point as the determining attribute of a combat fighting-knife.
Upon reflection I come to agree more and more.
A fighting knife should have a point, first and foremost, and any other attributes it has should detract from the point as little as possible.
The F-S has point.
What the Ek gives away in point it picks up in its leaf shape and its deep hollow grind.
The Boker, to me, represents a great all-around soldier's knife, and a good knife to have in a fight.

In a war-time, real combat, hand to hand in the dark, life or death, winner-takes-all situation, I would pick the 1st Pattern F-S because its "tablet" ricasso facilitates the paintbrush grip and because it has the most acute point of the three knives.
I place the Case V-42 in the same category as the F-S for the same reasons.
 
Originally posted by Ken Cox
Yes, the F-S has a point optimized for fighting and not for utility.
Nonetheless, the Wilkinson made F-S knives of the WWII era did NOT have a reputation for breaking.
The reputation for breaking came from a batch of US-made F-S knives issued to the Marine Raiders and Marine Parachute Battalion at the very beginning of WWII.
These knives had an inappropriate heat treatment and this caused them to break when used as a field knife.

I see no fault in a fighting knife having a thick blade geometry, and especially so in a double-edged knife, which has a smaller cross-sectional area than a single-edged knife.
Think of a single-edged knife as a half-sharpened double-edged knife.
In order to complete the sharpening of the single-edged knife and thereby make it a double-edged knife, one has to remove steel, or cross-sectional area, from the spine.

F-S starts out with a 3/16ths thickness and carries a diamond cross-section as much as possible to the tip.
This will allow a hair-shaving, damage resistant edge for combat, but it won't slice food in the kitchen.

The Boker, in order to maintain as much cross-sectional area as close to the point as possible, delays the point with a fat ogive curve.
This makes the Boker more versatile, by virtue of its thinner blade geometry, but it does so by sacrificing the acuteness of its point.

The Ek uses a deep hollow grind in order to maintain a thick central spine almost all the way to the point.
The Ek also has an ogive point, but it balances whatever it gives up in point by having a leaf shape with a waist.
This waist multiplies the effectiveness of the Ek in the draw cut and the slash.

If one could add up the pluses and minuses of the Ek and the 1st Pattern F-S Fighting knife, I think they would come out fairly equal.
For me, the Boker gives up too much point in order to obtain versatility.
Someone elses might score this versatility in the Boker's favor.

I read an article written by Jeff Cooper, whom we normally associate with the 1911 handgun, and a compelling argument for the point as the determining attribute of a combat fighting-knife.
Upon reflection I come to agree more and more.
A fighting knife should have a point, first and foremost, and any other attributes it has should detract from the point as little as possible.
The F-S has point.
What the Ek gives away in point it picks up in its leaf shape and its deep hollow grind.
The Boker, to me, represents a great all-around soldier's knife, and a good knife to have in a fight.

In a war-time, real combat, hand to hand in the dark, life or death, winner-takes-all situation, I would pick the 1st Pattern F-S because its "tablet" ricasso facilitates the paintbrush grip and because it has the most acute point of the three knives.
I place the Case V-42 in the same category as the F-S for the same reasons.

me: ...you like the F/S design very much, Ken. I wish you luck in your search. To find the right one for your needs, that is made beyond it's intended spec, will be a difficult grail. Me, I gave up on obtaining a Randall and finding a F/S is now relegated to my past. I think I will stick with my Ek and be content that experts know what works. For the price I paid for mine, I am quite happy with it. Good luck on your search.
 
An Eck may provide a more economical and equally functional alternative.
The Ek site doesn't make it too easy to find prices.
If schmoopiebear doesn't mind, may I ask the price range of the modern Ek knives?
 
Originally posted by Ken Cox
An Eck may provide a more economical and equally functional alternative.
The Ek site doesn't make it too easy to find prices.
If schmoopiebear doesn't mind, may I ask the price range of the modern Ek knives?

me: $139, 169, and 295 for various model of knives. Includes sheath.

Here's my take on Ek knives... they don't advertise much because those in the know don't need to know. Those that want to know will know where to know from. You know? *smile*

Hope this helps because it took me awhile to get info on them and the knife. I originally always wanted a Randall because I thought they were the ultimate tactical. A fellow forumite and the EK sales rep hooked me up, instead. It was worth it and haven't looked back since!
 
Originally posted by shmoopiebear
me: $139, 169, and 295 for various model of knives. Includes sheath.

Here's my take on Ek knives... they don't advertise much because those in the know don't need to know. Those that want to know will know where to know from. You know? *smile*


LOL!:)
 
Further to Daniels post, I own one of the NZ made replicas.After extensive discussions with seller I purchased a bright finished knife with a 440c blade.Compared to an original knife it is almost identical to look at.It is now available with carbon steel blade either bright or blued and in various original patterns.If there is a down side its the sheath,it looks good but the fit is less than perfect.I also have a Wilkinson Sword made knife ,still current pattern, it is thin, light and fragile feeling,nothing like the replica.i feel the bad rep this style of knife has amongst some is partly due to the poor quality of later knives.Is the replica from NZ good value? Undoubtably!
 
In my humble opinion, quality is always good value. The short term joy of cheapness is always made bitter by the realisation of long term poor performance/quality.:p
 
Peter Parkinson just wrote to me with the link to his Pattern 1 F-S Fighting Knife.

http://www.nzknives.co.nz/pattern1.htm

To me this knife, with its tablet, represents what Fairbairn and Sykes had in mind.
In my humble opinion, the tablet provides a place for the thumb in the paintbrush grip.

I don't full understand the S guard, and I would like to know whether it represents Fairbairn and Sykes' thinking or Wilkinson's.
 
I see a couple advantages to the S-guard. When the blade is used in the normal mode (which is likely to be in the hammer or icepick grip) the backward curve fits the side of the index finger to spread out impact pressure. The forward curve on the opposite side gives some hand clearance when use for the downward stab behind the collar bone (pig slaughtering thrust) that the Brittish favored for taking out sentries from behind. That thrust takes a long narrow blade like the FS. When you think of taking out sentries with a kidney or side of the neck stab the S-guard seems pretty good.

In unlikey event that you squared off against another knife wielding opponent the forward curve of guard might be useful if you executed a parry-six. That involves deflecting an opponents blade with a clockwise small twirl of the point of your blade around his. The forward curve might help hold or bind his blade. (I don't see this as at all likely). If you carried your knife in a cross-draw sheath you might similarly try and catch a blade in a parry-1. This is sort of a panic move where you try and sweep and oponents blade away to your right in a continuation of the sweep of drawing your blade. It is sort of a bad thing to carry fencing techniques too far into the knife wielding arena.
 
Back
Top